Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:00:06] You want to hang on to the tooth for 11 years? Most people say yes, especially if they don't know any of the caveats regarding the root canal. If the dentist has not told them that if you have a root canal, you have a 40% chance of having a blatant infection at the tip of the root canal. And then if you know that if you have that blatant infection, you have a 530% increased risk of a cardiovascular event. Well, how anxious are you going to be about going and having another root canal done? Here's the point that we should make, I think, and that is the patients should be informed. I'm Dr. Stuart Nunnelly.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:00:50] And I'm Dr. Candice Owens.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:00:51] And you're listening to the Life Stylist podcast.

Luke Storey: [00:01:00] Due to popular demand, I finally managed to get a solid episode that is focused on dental health. Now, this is such an important topic and one that I've wanted to revisit for years since I published my first episode, a few years back with my former dentist, Dr. David Villarreal, on Episode 35. So if you're listening to this and you have questions about your teeth, this one definitely packs a punch.

This, my friends, is Episode 434, Holistic Dentistry: The Truth About Mercury Fillings and Root Canals and so much more with my personal dentist and two amazing people, Doctors Nunnelly and Owens. And of course, we've got some show notes, links, and transcripts for you. For this one, you can find them at lukestorey.com/dentistry. 

The two dentists you're about to hear from are not your run of the mill tooth mechanics.
These are two highly skilled, knowledgeable, educated and decorated experts in their field. And frankly, I'm honored and really excited to share their wisdom with you. Dr. Stuart Nunnelly is a graduate of the University of Texas Health Science Center Dental School in San Antonio. 

He also maintains an integrative biological dental practice in Marble Falls, Texas, where he and his partners have treated patients from all 50 states and 24 countries, including, of course, yours truly and even my wife, Alyson. Dr. Candice Owens-- not that Candice Owens, I know some of you are thinking at-- has practiced at Nunnelly, Freeman and Owens since 2008. She obtained her undergraduate degree from McMurry University in Abilene, Texas, and her doctorate in dental surgery at UT Health Science Center, San Antonio. 

Now, each of their bios were really long, so I kept each of their extensive credentials to the bare minimum and the interest of time here. But just know that they are both highly educated and very well known and respected in this field. So you're in good hands. These two are just OGs when it comes to this style of dentistry, which to me is the optimal practice. Here's just a couple of the topics we discuss, but trust me, if you have a question about dental health, it's likely covered in the interview to follow.

We discuss the legacy of Hal Huggins, the pioneer of biological dentistry, and why his contribution to the field is so meaningful, that the establishment doesn't want you to know about the effects of mask wearing on your oral health, the danger is dental practice that dentists are risking their careers to warn you about, mercury fillings and the proper way to remove them, why indigenous people have no need to remove their wisdom teeth and some tips on nutrition that makes that possible, what to do if your dentist suggests a root canal or extraction, the importance of biocompatible dental materials and the various types of implants, jawbone cavitation, and how they can lead to other serious health issues, why fluoride is horrible for your teeth, safe teeth whitening, solutions for receding gums, smart hygiene practices, and why you might want to check for microbes under your gums and so much more.

Now, before we kick this thing off, I want to take a moment to invite you too to sign up for my newsletter, because in this age of censorship and Internet instability, the newsletter is the most secure way for me to stay in touch with you and to ensure that each and every Tuesday you get notified of new episodes with complete links to audio, video, and written transcripts for every single episode of the Life Stylist podcast. To join this awesome list, go to lukestorey.com/newsletter and enter your name and best email address. Again, that's lukestorey.com/newsletter. 

And by the way, I really value your trust as a listener and will keep your email private and do my very best to only send emails when they are related to this podcast or something else I feel is important to share with you. Now, I personally highly dislike getting over emailed, so I'm very mindful not to do that to you.

All right, get that bright and beautiful smile of yours ready to get the real deal download on all things biological and holistic dentistry with two of the top dentists in the world, doctors Nunnelly and Owens. Enjoy the show and make sure to share it far and wide. All right. Welcome to the show, you two.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:05:05] Thank you. Great.

Luke Storey: [00:05:06] It's lovely to see you when my mouth is not open under a bunch of lights. I'm not someone that's particularly scared of dentists, but I wouldn't say that it's my most comfortable experience. So I'm so stoked. And I was so happy to move here to outside of Austin, Texas, and figure out, after hearing about your practice for so long that you were like 40 minutes away from here in Marble Falls. I was like, "Hot damn, man. I thought we only had weird stuff like this in California".

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:05:35] No, it's so good to have you. We feel like we've almost become the epicenter for people moving from California. So we feel like we're in good company having you here.

Luke Storey: [00:05:49] Awesome. Thank you. Well, I first, I think, found out about you from Nadine Artemis, a friend and a former couple time guest on the show. And you seem to have created this practice here in Texas, which before all of us moved to Austin, I would say Marble Falls is relatively remote. But from what I understand, you guys for a very long time have had people traveling literally from all over the world to come seek treatment with you. Is that correct?

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:06:18] It is. I mean, it's been incredible just the variety of people we've met and how much we learn from them and their health journeys. I think, Dr. Nunnelly, some of his story, has drawn people in and just the teaching he's done about biological dentistry. So it is unique to have such a different group of people all venturing out to Marble Falls, Texas, of all places.

Luke Storey: [00:06:40] All the alternative health nerds that listen to this show. I want to ask you two, what's the most exciting recent development in your field of dentistry? Is there something coming down the pike with stem cells or anything that's really cutting edge and hopeful that's a huge leap forward?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:06:57] Yeah, I do think stem cells offer a tremendous future for dentistry because we're hopeful at some point we'll be regenerating teeth. And so what a thrill that would be to grow your own tooth back from your own stem cells. And so that research has been hot on the stove for some time, and I thought we'd be doing it by now.

Unfortunately, there have been some real glitches. You can grow other tissues, but it turns out that a tooth is more complex than you would think. And yet I still think there will come a time when we regrow teeth. And that's one of those things in the future. But even now, there are so many wonderful things that we are able to do that we couldn't do a few years ago, especially through various imaging techniques where we can image the jaws from every angle. That's a beautiful thing.

And also to be able to image things. Whereas we used to take old fashioned photographs, now we image through these fabulous machines that will reproduce teeth and jaws so accurately for us so that we can plan very, very accurately how we're going to reposition someone's jaw and the impact that has on their facial structure. So those things are fun. I would say right now is a hot time in dentistry for materials and new techniques. It's really a fabulous time. It's one of the many things that keeps me stimulated and enjoying dentistry.

Luke Storey: [00:08:49] Yeah, I'm looking forward to the day when you can regrow teeth. You guys have seen the condition of my teeth and out of any category of my physical health, I would say that's probably the weakest and one that I have the most regret about in terms of not listening to my elders when I was young. "Oh, take care of your--" I always brushed my teeth, but I didn't go for checkups often and often if my dentist, for example, at one point, one of them recommended I get a night guard.

 And this was just this Korean dentistry spot down from my apartment when I lived in that neighborhood. And it was going to be like $750. And I thought they were trying to scam me, because I just went there for teeth cleaning. But I went to the more holistic dentist for other work. I was like, "I don't need that". And then within a few years, of course, had worn out my teeth and everyone said, "Why don't you use a night guard? You could have prevented all this." 

So I'm kind of holding out for the stem cells or some sort of AI robotic thing that can help you grow teeth. But if you did it wrong, though, what if the tooth started growing out the side of your gum and poking out of your cheek? So not something we want to mess with. To give people a platform here, what's the basic fundamental difference between holistic or biological dentistry versus what we'd call traditional dentistry? What are a couple of the fundamentals that make them different?

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:10:11] I think really the most defining thing is that we really emphasize listening to the patient, and spending the time to hear truly what their health journey has been and what their experience with dentistry has been, because I think a lot of times-- and it can happen in a more traditional environment, but it's difficult because you have to have that real value for the fact that if you're not engaging with the patient and hearing what their experiences have been, then you're not going to really know how to help them achieve what their goals are.

So it's not often a dental visit that you have your dentist or your hygienist say, "Hey, Luke, what are your goals?" What do you want to accomplish today? Are you interested in having the health of your mouth influence the full body wellness that you want to achieve? Have you read some of these articles about microbiome in the mouth and how that can influence the rest of your wellness? 

I think it's just more that we don't draw a line here and say that everything happening here in the head and neck is mechanical. We're going to save these teeth at all costs. This is all interconnected. Whether you want to talk about meridians or you just want to talk about the fact that from a microbe standpoint or infection standpoint, we're connected. That would probably be the biggest differentiator, wouldn't you say, Dr. Nunnelly?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:11:38] I think so, and then, of course, we pay real close attention to what materials we use because for years dentistry in my opinion, has been remiss about using materials that can have a real impact systemically. And so we're careful about that. We don't want to restore someone's tooth, only to have it be a contributor to their systemic illness.

So we watch that very, very carefully. And there are two labs that I know of in the world that can measure someone's serum against virtually every known dental material so that we can make sure that we're not doing something that's going to be harmful to their systemic health.

Luke Storey: [00:12:21] Awesome. Two great answers. I think that really sums it up nicely. I think in traditional or allopathic medicine in general, it has a tendency to be very reductionist and mechanistic. There's not this interrelationship between everything going on in your body or even going a step further, the psycho spiritual element of who you are. So that speaks to your piece, Candice, about really getting inside that person's experience and how their dental health relates to that.

So I think both of those ideas are really important. And it's something we don't really think about in the old days of dentistry. You just go to the dentist and they put whatever they have laying around. They throw in your mouth and then you're living with that maybe for the rest of your life, whether it's the mercury amalgam fillings that, I'm sure we'll talk about or even the different plastics and composites. Who knows what this stuff is? Probably a lot of it's made out of things that you wouldn't eat. So if you wouldn't need it, why would are you putting in your mouth?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:13:24] No, you wouldn't. You sure wouldn't eat it.

Luke Storey: [00:13:29] Well, you probably have the inside baseball and some of the crazy stuff that they've used in the past and probably still are.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:13:34] Well, it's something that dentistry has much to be modest about at the least. We have, as Candice said, for years, not just the public as a whole, but dentists in general have said basically what goes on here stays here. And that's--

Luke Storey: [00:13:55] Above the neck, is what he's referring to for you listening.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:13:59] Which is incorrect. And so we have to be careful. You're going to have to live with it 24/7. So let's make sure we're doing something that's causing no harm.

Luke Storey: [00:14:10] Yeah. So you as I understand, Dr. Nunnally, came into this under the tutelage of Hal Huggins, who from my understanding, is seemingly the the godfather of this area of dentistry. Perhaps either of both of you could eliminate his importance in this field and in who he was. It's a name that you hear around a lot. I don't know that much about him, but it might be interesting as a starting point, like, who the pioneers were. And maybe there were others that I'm unaware of.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:14:39] Sure. Well, even before him, there was a Weston Price who was a fabulous researcher. He was a dentist, but fabulous researcher who brought to light many of the things that we consider so important today. And Weston Price, unfortunately, was also shunned by the dental world. And really up until recently, much of his research, I think, search has just been set aside and no one has ever, in their dental training encouraged to read Weston Price's research, although some of the most fabulous research ever in terms of nutrition and in terms of dentistry's impact on our systemic well-being. 

So Weston was long before Hal Huggins, but Hal Huggins became familiar with his work and could hardly believe it himself. And Hal was a brilliant man. He was way too bold for his time and it cost him his license. He began to tell people, of course, to have their mercury fillings removed and to have their root canal treated teeth removed. And he brought to light this whole idea of cavitation, which are a residual infections after having teeth removed. He raised all of these questions about dentistry and about the way it had been practiced for years. And it absolutely-- well, it did cost him his license.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:16:16] Fluoride, too. And that was something I think that really-- wasn't that one of the one main factors that caused him so much?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:16:22] Absolutely. And he just wasn't going to back down from anybody. So I met Hal because I got sick myself 20 years ago. We thought I had ALS. It turns out I had mercury toxicity acid. And my friend says, "Well, why don't you go see Hal Huggins?" I didn't know Hal Huggins from Adam, but I had read a little bit of his work and I was intrigued by it, and I had a background in biochemistry.

I thought, well, I am going to call him. And I'll never forget, I called him. I got him on the phone. I said, "Dr. Huggins, you don't know me, but I'm a Texas dentist. It looks like I've got ALS. Would you mind seeing me?" He said, "Well, I'll be in Montreal in three days. Can you meet me there?" So at that time he was seeing patients in Montreal, in Puerto Vallarta. And I loved the time that I spent with him the ten days in Montreal, and we became dear friends. 

And I learned so much from Hal Huggins. I had a master's in nutrition, and he turned my world upside down in terms of nutritional principles. There's so much that he taught and sowed into me that it wasn't long and I began to help him in Montreal with his patients. And then he got tired of being in the cold. So he came to Texas, to our office for eight years.

Luke Storey: [00:17:53] Oh, really?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:17:53] Yes. 

Luke Storey: [00:17:54] Oh, cool. 

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:17:54] He came once a quarter, brought very sick patients, always people who had all sorts of systemic illnesses. And we would do the dentistry, and then he would oversee the rest of their chemistries and so forth. So we're very fond of Hal Huggins. Until the moment he died, he was always controversial. But we learned much. And even those things, Luke, that I would question about Hal, I have to say they've come to be the truth.

I really feel like he was on a quest for the truth. There was no question about it. He would change in a heartbeat if he realized that good scientific data did not support his stance. But he wasn't going to back down from a bulldog if he believed that he was on the truth.

Luke Storey: [00:18:59] Have you ever wondered why some people get really sick while others only have mild cases? Well, researchers say the answer can be found in your gut health. A study published this year suggests that people with leaky gut and other gut symptoms may be at higher risk of severe illness. You know what I'm talking about? In fact, more than 70% of your immunity is created in your gut. Why does this matter? You might ask. Well, even if you're doing everything right, you will still be exposed to viruses and bacteria. It's simply unavoidable. It's just how the world works.

Now, personally, I've had a lot of leaky gut issues over the years and have made some huge improvements lately. I recently found an insanely cool product called Biome Breakthrough. Biome Breakthrough is the only formula that can repair compromised gut lining. So it helps to rebuild with the right probiotics and prebiotics and activate the four critical pathways to super immunity.

It eliminates bad bacteria, feeds the good bacteria, and gives your immunity the strength it needs to fight off viruses. It's really cool stuff. It also comes in two flavors, chocolate carnivore, and vegetarian vanilla. How I use it is I just throw this stuff in whatever morning drink I make, hot or cold. And it tastes delicious or not noticeable in some cases, and also mixes easily with pretty much everything.

So power up your immunity today and try Biome Breakthrough risk free by visiting biomebreakthrough.com/luke. And of course, I got a code for you. It's Luke10, that gets you 10% off any order. Again, that code is luke10 and the website is biomebreakthrough.com/luke. And listen, if it doesn't work for you, these guys will give you your money back within 365 days of purchase. Totally risk free. Awesome. Works. Check it out. 

And you brought up fluoride, but it's crazy that we live in a society and in a system where it's even debatable, let alone cause someone to lose their licence for questioning why we wouldn't advise putting mercury and fluoride into someone's bodies. These are two of the most toxic chemicals on the planet, maybe below the spectrum of radioactive materials. This is really, really bad stuff. So it's just crazy. And I remember years ago, I think when I first started exploring this area of dentistry, was it not quite common that people would lose their licenses just for speaking out against those two things?

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:21:41] Yeah. It was a bit before my time. But right at the time-- this would be my 15th year with Dr. Nunnally and Dr. Freeman. It was kind of a leap because he had to sit me down and say some of the things that we know to be true, we have to be very careful how we share those with patients so that we can continue to do that and help them. 

And so it was mind blowing for me, just coming out of dental school because I was like, "Wow, this is really interesting". There's more going on here than just the study of dentistry and medicine. It's some complicated layers of history. Even when he was talking about Weston Price, I think that was a time when-- you can correct me, Dr. Nunneley-- but there was a division amongst dentist. 

He started to realize that he was not comfortable with doing root canals because of some of the evidence that he was finding in his research. And then we had another group of dentists that were like, "Well, this is a way for people who can afford it to keep their teeth. And we're going to ignore some of this inconvenient research."

And that caused this split. And I think it still exists now. And in this time you've got a group of dentists who we find out year after year that more and more Weston Price's research gets validated. I was telling Dr. Nunnelly at our weekly meeting that I just read the Breath Book, Nestor's book, I think maybe you read it as well.

Luke Storey: [00:23:14] I've heard of it, but I haven't read it.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:23:15] Yeah. And so in the book, there's a couple of times where he talks about anthropologically, studying skulls and facial development and ancestral diet, that Weston Price's research gets validated now. So people are interested in it again. So it'll be interesting to see what conventional dentistry's response is to that, now that you've got some orthodontists and other research scientists going, "Oh, okay, maybe there's something to this". The whole Factor x thing with Weston Price, it came out that that was okay too.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:23:49] I mean, it just seems like every couple of years, don't you agree that some of these things that were considered there's not enough body of research here to validate this, it's just get little nuggets of it.

Luke Storey: [00:24:02] I haven't even read Weston Price books or look that deeply into it, but just from the photographs he took of people when he traveled around the world and you see the dentition of indigenous peoples that hadn't been adulterated by the Western diet, and they just had these huge broad smiles and they're super muscular. It's like, whatever those guys are doing, I want to do that versus people that had grown up on grains and industrialized food systems and all of that. It's like the proofs in the pudding. What is there to refute when it comes to the nutrition part, at least.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:24:38] Absolutely.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:24:39] Well, and we still see that today. We see these children who come from-- well, for example, we've seen many, many Amish children over the years who have been fed these beautiful diets that their ancestors were raised on, unadulterated by the typical American fast food and so forth. They have these robust skeletons and beautiful jaws. They can accommodate all of their teeth.

And I've been and Candice too on many mission trips to various parts of the world where you'll see children who have been on their indigenous diet and their parents, they accommodate all their teeth, they're perfectly aligned. And orthodontist is not even known in that part of the world. And as soon as they get off of that diet, within one generation, they have rampant dental decay and they have no room for all 32 teeth. Now they can barely squeeze 28 in. 

And it's still today. If we had to say what's the one thing that creates the greatest issues for dentists, it's nutrition, it's lifestyle. And if you want to really get back to the basics and have healthy children, you get them back on to an ancestral diet and keep them off the traditional American diet. And before you'll know it, you'll have your robustly healthy child.

Luke Storey: [00:26:24] Give it a couple generations. Well, it's funny, I was thinking about when I was prepping the notes for this interview, I was trying to recollect back to when my teeth went south, because when I was a kid, I never had any cavities. I didn't have braces. I had perfect teeth. It was recommended that I had a couple of wisdom teeth removed. So maybe I wasn't ancestral enough to have a jaw big enough to accommodate all of my teeth. 

But when I became a vegetarian, which was a roughly ten year period or so, my teeth all rotted out of my head. So I wasn't eating meat. I wasn't getting the B vitamins, no K2. I mean, I wasn't vegan, so maybe I ate some cheese sometimes, but I certainly wasn't eating tons of grass-fed butter or natto or any of the-- I don't know, just any foods that are rich in that. And looking back, there's definitely a correlation between that period of how I chose to eat with good intentions, of course. But my teeth just went south so fast.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:27:22] Well, and that's exactly what Weston Price said. And it's what Hal Huggins preached. In fact, Hal would never settle on a particular diet for anyone on a diet that was a fad diet because he says you can't determine anyone's nutrition until you look at their chemistry and until you look at their ancestry. And over the years, I looked at hundreds and hundreds of chemistries blood, hair and urine chemistries with him. 

And for example, let's say we had an Asian patient who came in who had decided that they were going to eat lots of meat. They'd come to the US and maybe they were throwing in all kinds of things. Their chemistries would look terrible. And then we would have a patient the next day from Germany who decided they were going to become vegan and abandon meat altogether. Their chemistry would look terrible.

If you switch those two where you get them back both on their traditional diets and the Asian is eating mostly vegetables and maybe a little smattering of meat and of fish, and other their chemistries would improve quickly. And the same way for the Europeans. You take them back to what their ancestors ate, their indigenous diet, get them a little meat, have a tater or two in there.

Luke Storey: [00:28:49] Well, that's funny because I'm a European Mutt, I guess. That's the best way to describe it. And everything about me feels better just eating, basically steak and potatoes. You know what I mean?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:28:59] Me, too.

Luke Storey: [00:29:00] That's pretty simple. When I deviate from that, it's pretty clear right away, I can tell through my digestion that I'm not meant to eat that. Not that it keeps me from doing so sometimes because cracker tastes good.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:29:13] Totally. 

Luke Storey: [00:29:15] Yeah. That's very telling to go back to the ancestry. I think that's actually good advice for people. There's all these diet wars, the vegan, carnivore, paleo. I'm just over it. Maybe look back, do some research. What did your grandparents eat? Where were they from and follow that.

Anyway, I don't want to digress too far off into that because I have so many very specific questions for you all. But let's tackle the big elephant in the room first, I think, which is the amalgam fillings, the mercury exposure. This is becoming more widely known, yet I still see people all the time with the mouth full of metal. So maybe you guys could just break down how that came into use and how widespread it still is and what are some of the repercussions. And then beyond that, let's talk about safe ways to have it removed and some of the risk perhaps of not doing it properly.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:30:04] So the biggest thing that we inform patients of when they come in and we're talking to them about amalgams, is that they're 50% elemental mercury. So when I was in dental school, I was taught to call them silver fillings. And there's very little silver in there. There's a mixture of metals, but it comes like in a little cartridge where there's mercury, just like in a thermometer. If you dropped it, you'd have to hazmat, all the things are like in a light bulb and it gets shaken up into this other powder of metals and packed in your tooth. 

So the biggest exposure that you would have had is when it was packed in like blood and urine wise, and then after that mercury rich layer comes to the top. Then over the life of having the filling, you are still having some off gassing of mercury coming off, but the agencies, to be unnamed will say, "Oh, it's not a significant enough dose of mercury to be concerned". 

But then I think in 2020, they came out and said, we really don't recommend it for pregnant women or children under a certain age. There's a little wheel on the IMT you can look at and it shows mercury, vulnerable populations, but it's not well known. There wasn't any type of campaign to be like, "Hey, let's let people know--"

Luke Storey: [00:31:21] That I didn't see any billboards.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:31:22] You should tell your dentist that you shouldn't have mercury. And it was all more aimed at placement. I don't know as much about the history. Dr. Nunnelly may know more about how it came to be used as a material. But in my time of education it was like, "Well, this is the durable thing. This is the easy thing to place." There were a whole lot of reasons why it should still be offered, but it just really didn't make sense. Even if you stepped back, there was a lot of focus on how to do them well and how to make them look good.

But there really wasn't a lot of time talked about what they really were made of. So it was a pretty easy jump for me, to not use it anymore. And it always kind of felt icky. And then when I had children, I remembered some young people that I had done amalgams on, I was in a practice where certain insurance wouldn't pay for resin composite fillings, and I didn't know any better. So I was placing them and all this amalgam junk would go in the floor of the mouth of these kids. Well, that's where I give my kids homeopathy, and it's a very vascular area. 

It really made me sick. It was like I had these people. I was putting all this mercury junk in the floor of their mouth. I'm sure it was going in their bloodstream and probably even in their lungs, inhaling some of that. So just to me, I don't think there's any place for it in dentistry with some of the more biocompatible and structurally awesome materials that we have.

Luke Storey: [00:32:59] Well, unless you've been living under a rock for the past few years, you've probably heard about the practice of cold therapy or ice baths by now. And many of you have probably tried it and felt its incredible benefits. I started doing cold immersion back in the day at Korean spas in Russian Banyas in LA, and eventually found a few ways to do it at home.

To me, it's just a non-negotiable. I got to have my ice every day. There's just no natural high like getting really cold on purpose. And at this point, even the mainstream scientific research has proven how awesome it is. In fact, studies have shown that cold immersion helps alleviate depression and anxiety, accelerates recovery and performance. It's great for pain management and reducing inflammation, plus it improves mood and brain function, which is probably what I most appreciate.

Now, over the past couple of years, I've seen a lot of brands emerge in this category, some great, some not so much. But what most of them share is that they are, unfortunately, financially out of reach for many people. So when I started seeing this brand called the Ice Barrel show up on the scene, I was intrigued. So I did some digging and I got to say I'm impressed. 

It turns out these guys have made an awesome and affordable ice bath. It's also compact, lightweight and portable, which makes it great for folks with limited space. And the good news is for you that I worked with Ice Barrel to get y'all $125 off so you can try it yourself. Just go to icebarrel.com/luke and use the code LKE. Plus, you can pay as low as $90 a month for your Ice Barrel with Klarna financing. So this one's a no brainer. They even offer a 30 day money back guarantee. Again, that's icebarrel.com/luke and use the code LUKE to get $125 off. And heads up, I also threw that link and code in the show notes as well. 

Is it safe to say that anyone who opens their mouth and has fillings that are metal or that type or any of them that are silver colored, a different amalgam of metals and don't have mercury, or is that just universally what's used?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:35:07] I'd say it's universal unless they have a gold restoration that might be confused with-- because those are metallic, of course. But for the most part, if it looks dark, it's a mercury based filling. And it never should have been used in dentistry. Candice said on the reason it was. It was cheap. Anybody can put one in. You can stuff on in with your thumb.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:35:33] The tooth doesn't have to be dry. You just put it in there.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:35:37] And it lasts. It lasts and lasts. It'll last until the last microgram of mercury falls out the whole thing because the mercury is what holds it together.

Luke Storey: [00:35:46] It will probably lasts longer than most of the people who have them in their mouth.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:35:49] Probably I know.

Luke Storey: [00:35:50] Not to be morbid, but I mean--

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:35:53] No, that's right.

Luke Storey: [00:35:54] And then what about if somebody has, say, a crown and sometimes you'll see an old crown, you see a little metal underneath it or something like that. Is this toxic material also used in other types of-- 

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:36:06] Of course.

Luke Storey: [00:36:08] And you mentioned gold teeth. If someone has a gold crown and it's a fashion statement, is there likely mercury in that too or?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:36:16] It certainly can be because many of the mercury fillings or the teeth that they were in failed. And so the dentist would then put a crown on top of that, oftentimes using not only the tooth but the mercury filling as a base for the crown to sit on.

Luke Storey: [00:36:34] Okay, kind of an anchor then to put the white colored foul tooth on.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:36:38] You can get just about everything dentistry has to offer in one tooth if you're really after it. You can get a mercury filling and a gold crown. And the tooth might die and then you might have a root canal through the gold crown. So you can have a tooth with a mercury filling a crown and a root canal all at one time. And maybe you'll even put a little stainless steel post in there to make sure it's really a--

Luke Storey: [00:37:08] A trifecta of failure.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:37:10] Toxicity trifecta. Here we go.

Luke Storey: [00:37:13] Oh, that's so brutal. Something else about the metal-- and I totally don't know if there's any validity to this idea, but I've always been opposed to having any metal in my body because I understand how it acts as an antenna for radio frequencies. I remember you guys are probably maybe at least-- Dr. Nunnelly is old enough to remember. I don't know about you, but if your TV wasn't getting reception, you just add more metal, tinfoil and stuff onto the antenna.

And I thought about that one time and I thought,huh, if we're even wearing metal jewelry, some would say would cause this to happen. In fact, one person I interviewed, Jack Crews, he looked at me and I used to have these two gold earrings and he said, "Man, you know how conductive gold is?" I said, "So what?" He goes, "Dude, you're a walking antenna for cell towers." And he's a brain surgeon. So I took that to have some validity, but I continue to wear them until I recently lost one of them and I didn't want to wear one in here. Anyway. Do you think there's any risk of having metal in your mouth for that particular issue or?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:38:15] Absolutely, because we can measure those currents.

Luke Storey: [00:38:19] Oh, no kidding.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:38:20] Those are galvanic currents. They're very, very well known in the literature. And we know they're disruptive to those natural currents that are running through us, through every meridian in our body. Those currents are disruptive. And they're manyfold higher than the currents, for example, that our brain or our heart run on. In fact, we measure these in micro amps. Our brain runs on nano amps. 

So we're about a thousand fold higher with these currents in the mouth than we are, for example, on our particular brain impulses. So it's not uncommon, Luke, to see patients, who complain of, for example, seizure activity after they've had various forms of dentistry that have different metals. And then then to have those removed and see the seizure activity go away.

Luke Storey: [00:39:14] Oh, interesting. Okay. Well, this is a bit later in my manuscript, but while we're on the topic of metals, I might as well just throw it in here when-- I had a missing tooth for a number of years and it became problematic because I wore down all my teeth on the other side because I could only chew on one side. So it took me years to actually get it done because of the expense or just the trauma involved in that type of surgery. But I didn't want to put a titanium post in my jaw, basically.

And so I was waiting for the-- what's it called? 

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:39:44] Zirconia.

Luke Storey: [00:39:44] Zirconia. Yeah, I was waiting for that. And then finally got that. And Dr. Villarreal, who's been on the show way, way back, another biological dentist in California, he said, well, let's send you to this bio energetics type guy that had some device. And it's like muscle testing, but with the device basically. And we tested the titanium and it did in fact cause a reaction. And so we went with the zirconia. I haven't perceived any problems, but would the metals using implant be an issue in terms of that or anything else in your biochemistry or your body's electrical system?

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:40:20] Yes. So both. The first thing that comes to mind for me is with the titanium implant, you do have a certain level of titanium ions coming off into the bone from that, and it makes a zone of inflammation. So it's not really the current issue. But that's also an issue. We definitely encourage our patients if they're able to-- we work with a great implant placing doctor and there's typically three options. There's titanium, there's zirconia, and then there's one that's a hybrid of the two, it's got zirconia on the outside and titanium in the core. 

The biggest thing that we want to avoid is taking out one source of infection or inflammation and putting in another. So there are many people that a titanium implant is not appropriate for them. Having that zone of inflammation, if they're on the connective tissue disease spectrum, like our fibromyalgia patients or RA patients, anybody that's really struggling with body inflammation, we don't want them to have that.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:41:22] And then too, we know and I'm not a good muscle tester, but people who do that and who we really trust, without fail, they will say that the titanium implants disrupt those normal channels of communication. And so we avoid titanium implants. And we think patients do much better with zirconia. And typically also those people who muscle test well and we think do a good job of it, they usually say the zirconia test very, very well in terms of energetic and not only energetically, but also chemically. It's about as chemically inert as you can get.

Luke Storey: [00:42:11] Cool. Cool. Well, I got to say, my implant is my favorite tooth. It's strong as hell. It's white, doesn't get cavities, doesn't chip. At times I fantasize. We're going back to the stem cell thing. I'm like, man, I wish it wasn't such a traumatic event to have. It was one of the worst things I ever went through. It was brutal, despite the nitrous oxide and anything they gave me, it just was no match. But I thought, man, when they figure out how to do that right, I'll just put all new teeth. It's beautiful. It's a perfect tooth.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:42:43] It is. But your experience is not what it should have been. It should not have been brutal. It should have been one where you hardly knew you had it done.

Luke Storey: [00:42:53] Really? Okay. So I went to a bad-- was it an orthodontist--

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:42:57] I'm not sure which one you went to, but--

Luke Storey: [00:42:59] I went to someplace, Tijuana and a little shack to save a couple bucks. I'm overdramatizing it, but the vibration of the drill. It's also the mental aspect of it, you know what's being done. And if you're conscious enough to know, then it psychs you out doing it.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:43:18] You're not overdramatizing it. It's really important. The autonomic nervous system and keeping our patients calm, not having them flood with stress hormones, it's important because it's going to set your body in a state of healing or a state of run from a bear, like you're saying. And then also imprint that groove in your mind of like, ooh, dentistry trauma. 

So we do take that pretty seriously, even all the way to the way that our patients wake up from a procedure that's still important. And I don't know when you're in the office, you find it and meet our acupuncturist because there's a lot of us there, but our acupressure start and they set the tone. So before we even do a sedation procedure, they're working on calming the patient's nervous system.

So by the time they get to us, it's not uncommon for them to say, "Oh, I already feel like you gave me something. I'm sedated." And that's right where we want them. We want everything just to be the slow drift and I'll tell him in the next 7 to 10 minutes, you're just going to start to feel deeply relaxed and you're going to be lost in your own thoughts. And then you're going to wake up and this is all going to be done. This toxicity is going to be gone. We're going to have everything done. You're not going to have to worry about a thing. 

And I think that greatly impacts our patients healing results, because they'll say, "I can't believe I don't have pain." And we're all different. Some people will wake up the next day and come and report some discomfort, but many times they're like, "What did you do? Because I'm not experiencing what I thought I would" the day after surgery.

Luke Storey: [00:44:53] Well, I did notice-- and going to your office-- that it's a much different feel. The whole experience is much different. The space is well designed, it's comfortable, it smells nice. It doesn't have that sterile, cold, scary dentist office feeling. And I haven't even experienced the acupressure part of it, but just walking in, everyone's super friendly, it looks nice, it's clean, it's just much different than experiences I've had in the past. 

Let's talk about the removal of these type of fillings. I always caution people to really do some research on who's going to do this for you. If you realize, I have mercury in my head and I want to get it out, what are some of the things that people should be mindful about in terms of actually making their mercury toxicity worse in the process of the extraction?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:45:43] Well. I'm going to really just cut the chase here because there's a protocol that's been developed to remove these properly. And it's very well established now. And it is published on IAOMT website, IAOMT standing for the International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology. And they used the acronym SMART to stand for Safe Mercury Amalgam Removal Technique. 

If a dentist is certified in that they have gone through the training, hopefully they're using that training to then remove a patient's mercury fillings safely. If they don't, you should report them to the IAOMT and they'll be removed from the website. IAOMT takes it that seriously. And I think it's a great step forward in producing something that now the public has access to and they know that if I go to a dentist who's SMART certified by the IAOMT, I should be able to get my mercury fillings removed in a safe manner.

So if you don't have them removed using those techniques-- and we like that technique, plus several other adjuncts added to it for added safety, but if you don't do that, you're going to get a mercury exposure similar to what it was when you first had them put in. You're going to have a spray of mercury throughout your oral pharynx and you're going to absorb some of that. And that, too, is well, well documented in the literature. And it takes months to years to lower back down to baseline once you've had that kind of exposure. So I would really encourage people to go to that website, iaomt.com.org.

Luke Storey: [00:47:48] We'll put that in the show notes by the way, guys, and that'll be lukestorey.com/dentistry. So we'll link to that.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:47:55] Okay.

Luke Storey: [00:47:55] I remember vaguely when I had it done-- and I'm hoping they did it right. I've tested my mercury levels since and they were moderate. I don't think I was terribly exposed, but I remember there was all of this kind of suction stuff going on and the providers were wearing masks and it was seemingly a very sterile environment and there were a lot of apparatus involved that wouldn't have been there for a typical procedure. So is there some kind of suction to make sure that it's not getting into the air? What are a couple of things that a dentist would use if they're following that protocol?

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:48:31] Absolutely. It'll be listed on there. And I think it's more than 20 different protective points. But we start with the patient. So we cover their hair, we use a rubber dam, and many times the suction device underneath that. Rubber dam's the stretchy thing. It looks like gloves and you pop it over the glove material, you pop it over the tooth. So only the tooth is sticking out that has the mercury. Then we're using a high speed suction, a lot of water, the patient's covered where none of their skin can get some of that splash of mercury. The providers also have their hair covered. They have on protective gowns.

Luke Storey: [00:49:06] Hazmat suits?

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:49:07] Yeah. I warn people when we sedate them, I'm like, okay, if you wake up and you think you've been abducted by aliens, now, it's like we have all this stuff on. We wear respirators similar to like a painter would wear.

Luke Storey: [00:49:18] Right. That's what I recall.

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:49:19] There's something up here by your face that looks like an elephant's trunk, it's an extra suction device for the air. Negative ion generators catching mercury if it gets out of that field, we do a chlorella pre rent and post rents and I've vitamin C and that's all just like belt and suspenders. Nothing should get underneath all these layers of protective gear that we're using for the patient for us. 

But if anything did sneak through, then you've got the chlorella binding in the vitamin C. And then we also are protecting the environment because we've got kids and grandkids. We don't want this junk going into the water and then into the soil and into our food. So we separate it out of the water, dispose of all the amalgam laden material properly.

Luke Storey: [00:50:10] Right. Right.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:50:12] Literally it's hard to believe, Luke, but when we take these fragments out of the out of the mouth and we have a collection of them, some of them are so big, they don't go into our suction where we retrieve them from there, but they're little chunks. And so they're put into a glass container, sealed. And then we have someone with a hazmat license come pick that up.

Luke Storey: [00:50:40] Wow.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:50:41] But today, if you went to Chicago and walked into the American Dental Association and said, "Hey, how do you fill that mercury fillings?" They'd say, "Well, you have our blessing". It's hard to believe. So you can put it in the teeth but you can't put it into the wastewater.

Luke Storey: [00:51:01] That's crazy. You're allowed to put it in someone's mouth, but if you remove them, you can't just throw them in the garbage, outside of your effects.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:51:11] That has to be carried off by a hazmat.

Luke Storey: [00:51:14] Oh, man, what a crazy world. I love having this show just because I'm always just shocked by how insane human beings are. We're just the weirdest creatures. One of my not so secret weapons for relaxation and quality sleep at the end of the day is something called Organifi gold. It's a powdered drink mix jam packed with nine superfoods. 

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Here's what's in it. Turmeric, an ancient root that's been used for over 4,000 years to promote a healthy response to occasional aches and pains. It's also a potent antioxidant and antiviral to aid and boost immunity. Now we've got ginger. Ginger has been used for ages to assist the body's immune system. And it also provides a little bite of flavor to this tea, while at the same time assisting in soothing the body to support rest, digestion and, of course, stress.

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Then when it comes to the microbiome of the mouth, I did have one niche question as we go into that, and that is what effects did you see during this whole masking charade? Were people having any different experiences in terms of their dental hygiene as a result of wearing these masks for two weeks at a time and pulling them out of their purse when they were supposed to wear one, etc?

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:53:44] We both feel strongly about this, but he pointed at me because we did another podcast and I talked about mask mouth in. It's a legit thing. I had patients coming to me asking, would you please write a letter to my employer because you're showing me-- I'll back up a little bit. When you come to our office to have a hygiene visit, we take a sample of your plaque and we put it on a slide and we put it under a phase contrast microscope. So you can actually see what's going on with the whole little world of microbiome critters around your teeth.

And we would have patients who their slide look one way they were doing the same home care, they'd be water picking, taking great care of their teeth. They had to wear a mask for work reasons. They would come. They had gingival inflammation. The microbiome was totally unhealthy, disrupted. And the thing that's just so frustrating about that is it can make you more prone to pneumonia. It can make you more prone to upper respiratory problems. So just like you were saying, it's this funky mask in the bottom of your purse and you put it on and you're breathing your own air, it's so disruptive. I know, it's like a big brush explanation that we saw it in the microbiome and then it was really frustrating because we just know how important having an imbalance there at the tooth and gum level, it does affect your lungs and your digestion. So, not good. 

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:55:15] No doubt that masking was a terrible error in the treatment of the disease, and we got to see it firsthand through the microbiome of patients mouths and this inflammation that amped up and you basically were breathing through your own little petri dish. So, to analyze one of those masks, it's literally crawling with bacteria. And, of course, it's not crawling with viruses because the virus has dashed through it like it's nothing. And it is nothing to a virus.

Luke Storey: [00:55:58] Like a mosquito through a chain link fence?

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:56:02] And another thought, too, it encourages mouth breathing because your nose is a bit-- I notice whenever I wear a mask clinically, I'm breathing through my mouth more. And we do not want that at all. We want nasal breathing. And so even that alone, I think it can mess with your nitric oxide production at the base of your tongue. It was just a whole cast that we probably don't even know all of them.

Luke Storey: [00:56:24] I was curious to see what you found clinically there. Speaking of the breath, you asked me a very interesting question at one point when I came in and I was kind of whining about the sorry state of my teeth in general. And I said, yeah, there was this one point where I just started getting all of these cavities. And you asked me, you said, "At that point, did you have an issues with heartburn?" And I was like, yes. And I was a vegetarian. I was eating tons of grains. And I just had acid reflux all the time especially when I was sleeping. Why did you ask me that? And what effect does acid reflux have on your teeth?

Dr. Candice Owens: [00:57:00] Sure. So when you look at teeth a lot, every day for many years, you start to notice patterns. And we know if we see something that looks like somebody took a ice cream scooper and went in the tops of your teeth and we see these little wells out or we see a certain pattern along the sides of the teeth where maybe some slips on the side, it's because some of their stomach acid is creeping up into the mouth. And stomach acid is one of the things that really can damage enamel in the mouth. 

And so you showed some of the signs of that back there. And so that's more back to that first question. We're looking at what's going on with your teeth. Our wheels are always turning like what else is going on here systemically? How can we coach this patient to better protect their enamel or make some type of nutritional or gut little tweaks that might help them have healthier teeth?

Luke Storey: [00:57:50] Got it. I remember, that brings to mind hearing about people that have suffered from bulimia and one of the signs of that being tooth decay. Same deal, huh?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:58:02] Absolutely. Oh, yes.

Luke Storey: [00:58:04] You're just passing all of that acidic stuff through your teeth all the time?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:58:09] Yes. 

Luke Storey: [00:58:09] Brutal. In another part of the microbiome issue, what role, if any, do parasites play here? Is that something you guys come across when you're doing these scans of people's biome? 

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [00:58:24] Of course. We see amoebas routinely, especially not necessarily in the unhealthy. We see amoebas, and it's the main parasite we see when we look at their microbiome under a microscopic slide. But it can be in a healthy person who eats fresh veggies right out of the garden. You can pick up an amoeba, unfortunately. When they get between the tooth and the gum, they like to chew around on our gum tissue too. So amoebas are not something that we care for. That's the main parasite we see. 

The other little critter that we dislike the most probably are spirochetes  that we find in the oral microbiome because they not only are harder on our gum tissue, but also they love our gum tissue, but they actually love our coronary vessels and our heart and our cerebral vessels and our brain even more. So they're very well documented in the literature in terms of their contribution to heart attack and stroke.

Luke Storey: [00:59:34] Oh, so that reminds me that a friend of mine had that scan done at your office and had the spirochete show up. And I think you guys recommended a water pick with some peroxide or something, and I got to check with them to see if they followed up with that, because I think it was like I had this kind of a pain in the ass. What's the big deal? And just thinking about gum health and I think their gums look fine. So they were like, "I don't know, it's not a big of a deal." But that's very telling there. Just as we said, nothing's isolated. If it's going on in your mouth, it's not a neck up issue here.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:00:09] No, they love to enter there and then off they go swimming toward those other places that they enjoy. 

Luke Storey: [01:00:15] All right. Damn spirochetes. What about the jaw alignment and sleep apnea and things like this? I did interview-- I guess I've done two shows on dentistry and other one was with the Dr. Jennings out of Oakland. And I don't even think he does fillings or any of that kind of stuff, but he just focuses on getting your jaw right and has discovered that it's at the root of this thing called substance p, this inflammatory marker and there's a whole thing. So I get a lot of questions from people about this. Is that a part of your practice at all of helping someone to actually get the shape of their jaw back in alignment and that whole piece?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:00:57] Well, it's not only because we just don't have time for it, but we recognize it. And again, it usually stems from a nutritional issue early on or even from a nutritional issue in the parents of the person who now has these small jaws and their inability to breathe and their inability to oxygenate properly. So we recognize it. And the Dr. Jennings that you're talking about, who you interviewed, of course, is a leader in that.

Luke Storey: [01:01:28] Oh, so you're familiar with him?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:01:30] Yes, absolutely. But now more and more, it's very, very well known. And if you can intercept it at a fairly early age, especially in children, they're able to wear appliances that help their jaws expand. And that, combined with a good nutritional regimen, can be very, very helpful.

Luke Storey: [01:01:53] Okay, cool. I'm glad we got to cover that. Let's see here. Going back to the nutrition piece, it seems that K2 is the thing that Weston Price was onto and it took some time for everyone to figure that out. Is there anything else specifically in terms of a supplementation that someone might be mindful of, like getting a retinol from cod liver oil or any of these really key nutrients to dental health?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:02:24] We really love vitamin C. And yeah, so Dr. Nunnelly has a naturopathic degree, so I'm going to let him jump in at any point. But I know his secret sauce, I guess. So in terms of systemically vitamin C, that's the big one. We give an IV dose. We always encourage people to have-- it's going to sound redundant, but that ancestral diet of whole foods and getting food source really good quality calcium.

And then, recently I've been interested because we don't use fluoride in the practice. It's not really a nutritional thing, but having some hydroxyapatite that's New Zealand sourced, contacting the teeth, I'm really interested in how that can be mineralized. It's exciting because hydroxyapatite. So we get asked all the time. It's kind of going from your question here about nutrition, but people are like, well, what kind of toothpaste? And so for years we've had a recipe on the website trying to help people avoid some of the bad things.

The more toxic things you'd get in a commercial toothpaste like microbeads and fluoride and triclosan and all that junk. So we kept it pretty simple with baking soda and salt and peroxide, but I think we're going to tweak it a little bit. And we found a couple of products. There's a lot of talk about nano-hydroxyapatite because it's these little teeny particles that can get in to your enamel. We've treated decay like it's a fluoride deficiency and it's not.

So our teeth are not made out of fluoride. They want stronger hydroxyapatite whenever you've got this biofilm that's attacking them. So there's a good way to be able to administer that. You can order-- this maybe getting a little too nerdy here. But there's some controversy about the nanoparticles because they're so small, like where else can they go?

So there's a oral wellness company that has a crystalline hydroxyapatite and they feel like the particles are small enough that you can absorb them in your saliva, but not so big that they can't be used by the tooth to remineralize. So we're pretty into that right now.

Luke Storey: [01:04:48] What about pro powder? Have you guys looked into that at all?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:04:51] Yeah, we like that. Well, Dr. Nunnelly is very familiar.

Luke Storey: [01:04:55] And then in terms of the-- what are they called? Spirochetes? That just sounds creepy. In terms of the spirochetes and the harmful bacteria, parasites, all this kind of stuff, with something like a colloidal silver or essential oils or oregano oil, would it make sense to add some of that to your brushing routine or your hygiene routine?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:05:17] Sure. Oh, yeah. And those are all helpful. But typically the pathogenic bacteria live in an anaerobic area underneath the gum line where no oxygen is really able to get. So that's why if you're going to use something like hydrogen peroxide or even colloidal silver, you want to put it into a water pick where you can jet it under--

Luke Storey: [01:05:43] Got it because they're just going to hide out under the [Inaudible 01:05:4].

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:05:45] They're going to bury.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:05:46] They're crafty. They're very crafty. 

Luke Storey: [01:05:47] Yeah, because they're trying to avoid the oxygen anyway, right?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:05:50] That's right.

Luke Storey: [01:05:50] Okay. All right. That's cool. That's very good information. Let's get into root canals and extractions and wisdom teeth. Like mercury, fluoride, and we don't have to get into fluoride. Just everyone listening, don't put fluoride in your body. It's pretty simple. Don't let your dentist duty.

They try to give you sometimes that little fluoride toothpaste when they do their cleaning. I'm always like, no. But something people ask a lot of questions about is when is a root canal, if ever valid? What are the alternatives? When do you know a tooth is just a lost cause and you have to extract it and perhaps put in an implant afterward or something. So let's wrap on that a little bit.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:06:33] Well, I'll take that one. It's still probably the most controversial issue for holistic dentistry because if, for example, we say all root canal treated teeth need to be removed, well, then you pose a whole new set of problems. How do you replace it? It's difficult to replace it the way God put it there in the first place. And even though you're very, very comfortable with your zirconia implant, some people are not. And not to mention the cost, all the ways. 

We can replace teeth in a beautifully aesthetic manner. But the cost, the time all are factors that we have to think about. So and the good news and bad news, it's good news for most traditional dentists is that you can do a root canal. And the average life of a root canal in the United States is 11 years. Well, you want to hang on to the tooth for 11 years? Most people say yes, especially if they don't know any of the caveats regarding the root canal.

If the dentist does not tell them that you have a 40% chance, or at least worldwide 17 studies have indicated, if you have a root canal, you have a 40% chance of having a blatant infection at the tip of the root canal. The root canal may still sit there, but you have a 40% chance if you have what's called a cone beam exam or CBCT exam done. There's a 40% chance in the 17 studies thousands and thousands of patients around the world, 40% chance of that root canal having a blatant infection. And then if you know that if you have that blatant infection, you have a 530% increased risk of a cardiovascular event.

Well, how anxious are you going to be about going and having another root canal done if you know that you've got 40% and you've got 530% increased risk of cardiovascular event? So here's the point that we should make, I think, and that is patients should be informed. The dentist should simply take the time to inform the patient. And if the patient, say, for example, Luke, is going to-- if maybe they're 80 years old and they've got five root canals and they're as healthy as a horse, well, maybe if let's say now another tooth gone bad, and if they don't have the root canal on it, they're going to have to go to dentures. 

Well, that might be a case where a root canal. You know what? Maybe a root canal is indicated there. But you have a 25 year old who had a root canal a year ago and now has MS. And now she needs another root canal. Now we might want to start thinking, has this root canal been part of the problem in MS? We don't know. 

But over the years, there's been great documentation by physicians and dentists around the world to show that when root canal treated teeth were removed, systemic health conditions, especially autoimmune issues and cancers went away. And so we're also individually gifted in terms of our immune systems and in terms of our health in general. It's a very individually based question for us. The the issue for us is that most times physicians have referred their patients to us and encouraging us and the patient to have the root canal treated teeth removed because they feel like it's compromising their systemic health.

Luke Storey: [01:10:35] With the root canals, are there other issues apart from cavitation, which we can talk about in a moment? Because the cavitation, as I understand it, I think I had a couple at one point and I had them cleared with ozone or whatever they did. But you have an infection then that's down in the jaw, which can turn systemic. So that would be one. Are there other implications to root canals, though?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:11:00] I think for the most part you've hit on it. A root canal treated tooth by definition is dead. And it's not sterile. So if you have bacteria and anything in your body with no way to deliver a blood supply to it to keep it in check, then you have those bacteria in a beautiful, warm, anaerobic environment.

Luke Storey: [01:11:27] They're happy.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:11:28] They're very happy.

Luke Storey: [01:11:29] They're thriving.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:11:30] They're very happy. They do thrive. And now we know the toxins that are released from these, they're incredibly potent. They're not only deleterious to your immune system, but certainly they're deleterious to your brain. And just now, as you ask me the question, I'm thinking of a new article that was just published that talks about the severity of depression being associated with root canal treated teeth.

It's because the toxins have an affinity for neurological tissue. So we have to be very, very careful about root canal treated teeth. I think some people obviously seem to tolerate them fine. Just some people can tolerate most anything.

Luke Storey: [01:12:24] And when is a root canal typically encouraged? You've had a tooth that's had a cavity cavity and then it's been filled a couple of times and it just keeps getting cavities and then it gets so deep that you have no choice but to drill out into the roots and essentially kill the tooth. Is that the sequence of events that leads one to that conclusion?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:12:47] So if you present with the tooth where the tooth decay has gotten to the nerve and any dentist can see usually in 2D, they're checking, we like to look in 3D because that just gives us a little bit more information about what the pathology looks like down at the end of that root. But by the time the cavity gets to the pulp of the tooth and the tooth is dying or has died, you don't really have any choice. You can't just put a filling in there. So you have to make the decision, are we going to root canal or extract? I think something that I see often is cracked teeth. Someone will have a crack or they'll have a crown and it stresses the nerve of the tooth and then they end up with a root canal. 

And that's concerning for us, because if there's a crack in the tooth that's caused structural failure. The only way that root canals actually stay, any semblance of sealed is if it's sealed. And if you have a crack, then it's hard to understand how these really smart microbes are not just going to get in there, and like you said, thrive and make toxins and inhibit enzymes. And there's actual real research out there that supports that.

Luke Storey: [01:13:58] Okay. So if you arrive at that destination with a problem tooth, you're really left with two options, root canal or extraction.

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:14:04] Yes.

Luke Storey: [01:14:05] That's your tooth is toast. Okay. Is there a way to do a root canal properly? I know you guys use ozone, which I was really excited about because I love ozone for so many things. Is there a way to do a root canal that ensures you don't get a cavitation in there?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:14:20] There's not a way to do one where you can ensure that the root canal is sterile.

Luke Storey: [01:14:25] Okay.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:14:26] When there is, we will be back to doing root canals.

Luke Storey: [01:14:29] Okay.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:14:29] I'll add one caveat to that. What if we are able to get the root canal system sterile? What assurance do we have that it's going to stay sterile? Once again, you have this dead entity and we think of teeth as being solid as a rock. Well, they're hard, but they're still porous. Under electron microscope, they look like honeycomb.

Luke Storey: [01:14:54] Really? 

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:14:54] Yes. 

Luke Storey: [01:14:54] Wow.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:14:54] Yes. So the bacteria have ways to get in there, especially in the mouth, for Pete's sake. There are all kinds of ways they can, it's like getting on I-35.

Luke Storey: [01:15:05] So even if you're properly sterilizing while the procedure of a root canal is being done, there's literally no guarantee that it's not going to become a problem later.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:15:13] There's not good research to show that six weeks, six months, a year from now, the root canal system would remain sterile if you could get it that way. There are. There's one in particular, great endodontist who I have a dear relationship with. She's in California and she just does such amazing work in that field of endodontics of root canals. And she's doing everything, I think, possible at the moment to try to get the root canal system sterile. And using ozone, of course. But my challenge to her is no one knows how long it's going to stay sterile if you ever get it that way until this point. Unless it happened in the last few days, a root canal system cannot be sterilized.

Luke Storey: [01:16:05] Okay. And then what about extractions? If the root canal is not something that appeals to you, which I'm sure is going to be the case for many people listening, so in my case, for example, the wisdom teeth were crowding my teeth, and so I got a couple of them extracted and that's where I ended up years later having cavitation found. 

So I'm assuming there's more of a guarantee with a complete extraction to sterilize it at the site when the extraction is done, have the gum seal over it and you should be good to go. Is that correct? Or do you still want to periodically check for cavitations under where an extraction took place just to make sure that nothing's brewing in there?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:16:45] I think this is where we'd recommend that you find a dentist that's familiar with the fact that cavitation can form and has been exposed to that type of research because we will just pick a first molar, we won't do wisdom teeth right now. But if you take out a molar and there's a ligament that runs around that molar and then you've got this really dense bone that holds your teeth in place. We want them to be there and be secure when we need them.

When the tooth is extracted, there are a couple of things that need to happen to ensure that the patient's going to heal optimally. So you want to make sure any infection associated with that, this little bundle we're talking about that would warrant the root canal is abscessed, that that comes out, that the ligament comes out and then that you even-- it sounds a little aggressive, but you scrape away some of that bone there because it's not terribly vascular and common sense tells you you want really good blood flow to that area. So the couple of biohacks that we do are, number one, our patients body's set in a state of healing which can sound kind of woo to people that are not.

Luke Storey: [01:17:52] Probably not people listening.

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:17:53] Not your people. I know your people, they're good at this.

Luke Storey: [01:17:57] They're probably like, "Can I take ayahuasca before I get treated?"

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:18:00] It might be even better experience. Yeah, but the average person who's not familiar with what we do, that's important to us. We want to make sure that they're set in a state of healing. Then we want to thoroughly clean out that infection, what we can see with our eyes. And then we're using zone to go in. And it's going to blow up the cell walls of any of these pathogens, any bacteria or viruses, anything in that socket.

It's just the best adjunct we can use. So the platelet rich fibrin that we're going to put in that socket, so we've stimulated it to bleed by getting it really cleaned out. Well, we put the ozone on and we clean it the best that we can. And then right when our patient's going to sleep, we draw blood, we spin it in a centrifuge, we get that platelet rich fibrin layer, pull it out like in these kind of gel plugs. You can go on Instagram and see bio dentists doing this all over the world. And we pack that in and we put a little suture over it. They're having a vitamin C drip, and we've done everything that we can do with the technology we have today to ensure that that patient's going to heal.

Luke Storey: [01:19:03] Cool. So you're using PRP?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:19:05] Yeah, it's a little different. Yeah, it's PR if there's nothing added to it. It's just purely spinning that blood. We throw those red blood cells to the end of the tube and we get that PRF layer. And then by putting that in there and suturing it, we're controlling the soft tissues, not just dumping in there in your breakfast and everything else because if you're--

Luke Storey: [01:19:26] A corn flake stuck in there.

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:19:28] It's unfortunate. But it's just the best we can do to help you heal there and not form a cavitation because we've gone through all this effort to not do a root canal. We want your body to be optimally well.

Luke Storey: [01:19:42] Okay, cool. I got many more questions. I'm going to get through as many as I can here. My question for you is, has anyone figured out a way to whiten teeth without ruining your teeth? So all kinds of blue light white things coming out now, and I haven't really kept up with it, but my teeth have grown quite yellow. I know many people's have. Is there anything that works that is safe?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:20:04] Interestingly enough, the materials that are even used in Crest Whitestrips, that's carbon amide peroxide. As soon as it hits saliva, it converts to hydrogen peroxide. There's just a gel there that holds it in place. There's very little research to suggest that if you do it moderately, that you're going to harm the teeth long term. 

So almost all gels, all bleaching gels at dental offices around the world have carbide peroxide in them. And the problem is and the reason it gets a bad rap and quite frankly, we didn't bleach people for years because we were concerned about, are we going to are we going to cause problems down the road, is that the gels and the bleaching solution was too intense. And people would leave with very, very sensitive teeth, which might occasionally lead to a tooth that goes south on us. 

So all that being said, I think as long as the patient uses a bleach, a bleaching gel of 10%, maybe they go up to the 16% if they're not sensitive to the gel, then they'll be okay. So I used to at one time believe we should never bleach anybody's teeth. I've changed to believe for the most part, it's safe.

Luke Storey: [01:21:34] Okay. And then what about these blue light devices and things that I've seen lately? Any validity with those?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:21:39] I used one last night. Somebody gave me. A hygienist came back from a show and they had this paint on product with the light. My husband was like, "What's in your mouth? It's like the strange thing." I don't really know how evidence based that is. To me, it felt like it just set the gel. So I don't know as much about that as I should, but yeah, it's really a trend right now. Put the bleach on. Put this light in. So I felt more like it was setting the product than actually doing something to the enamel.

Luke Storey: [01:22:11] So we need more research on that. Is tongue scraping legit and critical to oral care?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:22:18] I think so.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:22:19] Tongue scraping is legit. And some people have way too much plaque on their tongue. And so just using a tongue scraper can be very effective.

Luke Storey: [01:22:28] Does that tongue scraper need to be copper?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:22:30] It does not.

Luke Storey: [01:22:31] Okay. And then what about oil pulling? This is another popular one. Is this doing anything useful?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:22:38] Yeah, it is. Absolutely. So we have tons of patients that oil pull, coconut oil typically. I think it's the Lauric acid that's in there. There's a component that is antimicrobial and then, of course, it has ancient roots, ayuverdic medicine. But mechanically pulling that oil through the sulcus of the teeth, you're going to be pulling out some of those unfavorable microbiome critters and then hopefully you're going to repopulate with more beneficial bacteria. So it's cleansing anti inflammatory, helps the microbiome. Don't spit it in your sink. You'll clog your sink.

Luke Storey: [01:23:16] Oh, that's funny.

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:23:17] Put in the trash.

Luke Storey: [01:23:18] Yes, that's funny. I was reading something from I think our water company or something and it was like, "Don't flush bacon grease down your sink". And I was like, oh. My wife, Alyson, they say, "Make sure, don't put that in the sink". And I didn't, just to respect her. And I was like, "Who cares?" So it's a real thing, putting fat into your plumbing. Okay, that's good. What about gum recession? Is there anything that we can do about that?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:23:47] Well, it depends, because most gum recession, quite frankly, is from gritting and grinding teeth. It says if you go out here and take a fence post and you try to wiggle it loose out of the ground, the ground will crater around it. And so it does with our gum tissue around our teeth. So actually a night guard again can be helpful because many times that occurs primarily when we're sleeping. But it can also happen, of course, when we're under any stress driving or whatever. Mine got much better, quite frankly, when my kids hit about 25 years.

Luke Storey: [01:24:26] Less stress in your life. That's funny. What about those little stickers they put up in between your gum and tooth? Do those have any positive effect on getting your gums to drop back down?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:24:36] No.

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Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:26:42] They certainly can be done. I'm not real knowledgeable about it, but I'm very interested in it, especially with my naturopathic degree. We delve into that some. In fact, I just had this conversation last night with a fabulous naturopath in Arizona who was talking about using various frequencies in dentistry. So I think that your listeners should stay tuned. I think we'll have more information on that very soon.

Luke Storey: [01:27:16] Okay, cool. Cool. Yeah, I have a bunch of frequency devices, rife type things and stuff like that. So I'm definitely a believer in the ability of certain frequencies to render other biological organisms inert through resonance. So it's actually pretty scientifically grounded. It's just a matter of which devices are legitimate and which aren't. And how do you know who set the frequencies and how do they really know those are the right ones? That's where it gets a little tricky.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:27:46] Oh, yes.

Luke Storey: [01:27:47] We covered the gums. Someone asked, why do we need to fill cavities in baby teeth? I thought that was interesting.

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:27:55] Yeah, sure. So, we want to make sure we're filling them with something that's healthy for the child. And so I would say that's the majority of pediatric dentists are using white fillings. So go for that. But it's important our baby teeth hold the place to help guide the proper erection of our adult teeth. And when we're talking about everything we can do to put our children at an advantage for arch with and not having the jaw grow down and back. We want this forward jaw growth. 

It would be a detriment to lose those baby teeth too soon. And it would also be really distressing for a mom to watch their child have an abscess as it crosses over. I'm a mom, so it's like, that'd be terrible. You just don't want that to happen. So it would be worth filling them with a biocompatible material.

Luke Storey: [01:28:42] Okay, cool. And then someone asks, why do I only see tartar build up behind my four lower front teeth?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:28:49] Yeah. He's like, "Go for this one." There's a salivary gland down there that has-- there's a lot of minerals available in the saliva. And so most people, that's where they have most of their tartar buildup. It just dumps those minerals there and they can easily calcify and turn into that hard tartar buildup, not the soft stuff you have after you have pizza or something like that and you go to bed without brushing your teeth. It's a mineral buildup and everybody builds up just a little different. It is influenced by the microbiome, but it just has to do with that gland there.

Luke Storey: [01:29:21] Okay, cool, cool. Someone says, is it true that if you have a healthy liver, you don't have to worry as much about a root canal?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:29:29] If you have a healthy liver, you don't have to worry as much about anything. And the problem is, our livers, especially in this country, are not typically that healthy. But in terms of root canal, I know of no published data that suggests that. I would say, though, the liver is our chief detox organ. And so we want the liver and the kidneys to be functioning well and everything will do better. There's no data, though, to suggest that a healthy liver is going to lead to less root canals.

Luke Storey: [01:30:06] Okay. And then last one here. Are crowns necessary? Do they decrease risk of infection in a cracked or damaged tooth?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:30:17] In a cracked tooth, that's symptomatic. It doesn't just look like there's cracks. And that's where you have to really trust your dentist. You want to find somebody that has the same philosophy that you have because if you've got a symptomatic crack tooth and it doesn't show up as obsessed, then we would recommend as conservative a crown as you could possibly do. And it's kind of upper level, but it could keep the tooth from cracking to a point that you end up losing it or have an abscess.

We always try to do the most conservative and the most biomimetic thing that we can do in our practice just because we don't have root canal in our back pocket to bail out anything that's a little over zealous. So we're like, we want to keep these teeth alive.

Luke Storey: [01:30:58] Well, I noticed your conservative approach having made your office a number of times now. I kind of admittedly walk in and I'm just like, "Fix them all. I'll just do all the stuff". Not like I have the money to pay for that. But you guys, I think both of you independently said, let's just wait. I know you think your teeth are pretty shot, but they're hanging in there. Let's just see how it goes. So I appreciate that in the context of the statement that you just gave. But for someone who's overzealous, I'm just like, "Crown them all.I just want pretty functional teeth again." But I think it's smart and maybe not great for your business model, though, for you guys to be so conservative.

Obviously you're doing it right. You got people coming from all over the world to see you. Well, thank you, two, so much for, not just being here today, but just for doing it right, man, and moving the ball forward for people that are starting to become aware of this and creating an incredible practice that I personally experienced.

And I'm just glad you guys are here. I'm glad we're able to get the word out to people so they can get a greater understanding of this because we're really, as you know, coming out of the dark ages of dentistry. I mean, it's just shocking what we were doing just a few years ago. And many dentist in the world are still doing, so thank you for your commitment to the holistic approach. That said, for people that are interested in traveling to Texas to come see you guys in Marble Falls, where do they find you and how does that happen?

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:32:21] You can go online and you can find us at Nunnelly, Freeman and Owens Healthy Smiles For Life. And the best thing to do is just get into contact with one of our treatment care coordinators and then they'll just take it from there.

Luke Storey: [01:32:34] Okay, cool. And then if someone is elsewhere in the world or doesn't have the possibility of coming here to Texas, what's a couple of key words or something they should look for if they're seeking out this type of approach to dentistry?

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:32:45] I'd go to the IAOMT website iaomt.org, and there are dentists around the world now and physicians who are members of that society, and it doesn't necessarily assure you that you're going to have a completely holistic experience because people become members and don't necessarily become the learners that we all want. But I would say that's a great starting place. And then your listeners could go and interview the dentist and see if they feel like it's the right fit.

Luke Storey: [01:33:22] Got it. I think that's a great idea. I mean, even if you just got their perspective on some of the low hanging fruit, mercury fillings, use of fluoride, just willy-nilly, root canals, knowledge of cavitation, a lot of things we've covered here today.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:33:36] Exactly.

Luke Storey: [01:33:37] Okay, cool. Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much. And now you've got a patient to go take care of, so we'll let you out of here. But I appreciate you coming by today.

Dr. Candice Owens: [01:33:43] Thank you, Luke.

Dr. Stuart M. Nunnelly: [01:33:45] It's a privilege.

Luke Storey: [01:33:50] Well, I hope this one addressed your many questions about dental health. I definitely did my best to cover every aspect of this complex topic and the time allotted. But if by chance I miss something, by all means let me know by responding to my next newsletter and I'll throw your question in the queue for the next show I do on this very important topic. 

And next week, we've got another paradigm busting mega show for you with the legendary Dr. Christiane Northrup on Episode 435, where we chat about things like medical freedom, injection protection, financial sovereignty and how to save yourself and your sanity during this time of unbelievable change and upheaval. 

In closing, thank you so much for listening, and I can't wait to bring you another one next week. And if you found this episode valuable, I'd be ever so grateful if you shared it with a couple of friends or perhaps even a social media post. Every one of your voices counts, trust me. So thank you for your support of the Life Stylist podcast.

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