Garnet Dupuis: [00:00:06] Because this stuff has to have an emotive quality because we're not thinking creatures that feel. We're feeling creatures that think. And that's really important. That's the whole thing of bottom-up as opposed to top-down. Most neuroplasticity techniques come top-down. They are more conceptual. The bottom-up, which is where I play, is more perceptual than cognition. Hi, this is Garnet Dupuis, and you're listening to The Life Stylist Podcast.

Luke Storey: [00:00:48] I'm Luke Storey from lukestorey.com and here are some of the fun we'll get into today with the one and only, Garnet Dupuis on number 457: what sparked Garnet's interest in neuroplasticity; brain engagement, and how it compares to conventional brain entrainment; brain priming and sensory enrichment; why the brain prefers pattern recognition versus novelty; what we're learning from psychedelic research that relates to brain engagement methods; light and sound techniques called lucid microdosing or neuro dosing; how the NeuroVizr was so thoughtfully developed; stacking microdosing with the NeuroVizr and the G-spot of the brain and working with the expanded female orgasm; the hypnagogic state, and the fourth state of consciousness. And finally, we cover something Garnet calls the Fourth State Deficiency Syndrome. You'll find some beefy show notes and links over at lukestorey.com/garnett. That's G-A-R-N-E-T. 

And here's a bit about our guests before we dive into the abyss of consciousness. Garnet is an integrative healthcare specialist and inventor with the primary focus on consciousness and biophilic technologies. The first language, light, and sound NeuroVizr is a wearable headset designed to generate a neuroplastic sensory enrichment experience known as brain engagement. 

And I got my hands on the NeuroVizr a couple of months ago, and I knew from that moment I just had to interview this guy. And I've been using it just about every day since. And I got to say, I am hella impressed. This thing is very cool. So I'm excited to share not only the inventor but everything about it with you today. If by the end of the show you want to try it for yourself, you can visit Neurovizr.com and use the code LUKE100 for 100 bucks off. That's N-E-U-R-O-V-I-Z-R, Neurovizr.com.

All right, let's go ahead and jump into the fascinating world of Garnett Dupuis on the Life Stylist Podcast. So, Garnet, we were talking about before we started here, this idea around-- the way I framed it was open-mindedness versus closed-mindedness because you were talking about how our superstitions hinder our capacity for growth and evolution. 

I'm paraphrasing what you said, and I said, yeah, that's like my interpretation of open-mindedness versus closed-mindedness where not only can new ideas and information and ways of thinking and being get in, but also old played out stuck ways of thinking and being also get trapped within and you can't get out of that operating system. And then you started to explore the correlation between those concepts and neuroplasticity. And I want to just dive in right there.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:03:33] Boom. Let's do that. Okay. Let's not pretend that we know brain, mind, and which is what? And are they together or the same or different? Let's just accept that we have a mind and there's a brain, and somehow they all work together because what you were saying, it sounds more mental, more almost psychological.

Luke Storey: [00:03:58] Right.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:03:59] And it's true and from my understanding, it's also true neurologically. So it's like, oh, that's good. That's good. So there's not opposition. There's a complementarity there. So I like to talk about neurology, knowing that it's totally translatable into the psychology. I don't like separating the two and I don't know how to separate them. Frankly, to me, they're not separated, so why bother to try?

So I'm a monster fan of a particular model of the brain called the entropic brain model. Robyn Carhart-Harris, if you know the guy, Imperial College London, and they use psychedelics in research, not really to understand the psychedelics, but to use psychedelics to understand the brain. So it's a vantage point that's unique. Some people might get turned off to the concept that it's using psychedelic compounds. That's not the point at all. 

And the entropic brain model. There's also another one. I don't know if people know this guy, Karl Friston, he's a preposterously brilliant genius that knows all kinds of things, and it's hard to understand him. But he's got this thing called the Free Energy Principle, and he got together with Carhart-Harris and modified the entropic brain model into the anarchic brain. 

So there are these models and they sound peculiar or high-tech or strange, but they're pretty simple. They're pretty simple, and I love their simplicity because they help me understand what we were just talking about-- open mind, closed mind. So I don't know exactly where you want to go in this conversation, but we can go to a lot of places.

Luke Storey: [00:05:57] Yeah. What I did there I think is called Point of Tarantino, where you go to the end of the story at the beginning. I was just excited because we touched on something and I have that thought, which I have quite often, like, God, we should be recording this. And I hadn't pressed record yet, so I wanted to make sure and capture that. But now what I'd like to do is actually just back up a little bit.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:06:18] Okay. Okay. 

Luke Storey: [00:06:20] You just--

Garnet Dupuis: [00:06:20] I like Tarantino, by the way.

Luke Storey: [00:06:21] Yeah, I do too. I love that storytelling, and we're going to talk about how the brain benefits from novelty and unpredictability. Even though it wants predictability, it seems to grow and so I think that's why maybe guys like us, like how stories are told in a nonlinear way.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:06:39] Yes. Well, okay. You got me all hot and heavy right now, so let's go.

Luke Storey: [00:06:43] I'm going to go a little linear. So you're here in Austin visiting your daughter, but you live in northern Thailand and I find that just a curiosity. Any time I meet an expert, I think, God, what motivated you to make a big move like that? And how did you make it work? Any time I travel to another country, I think I meet an American or Brit there or something and I'm like, God, how did you do it? How do you adapt to that big of a change?

Garnet Dupuis: [00:07:10] Wow. I'll skip all the details. I'm a French-Canadian farm boy and none of my family went anywhere. And as soon as I finished last year in university, it's the end of the '60s, beginning of the '70s so you can maybe imagine the time, I moved to Isfahan, Iran because I couldn't go to Mars.

So I don't know, there's a feeling, the analogy, I'll say is like with a bloodhound, that once it's on the scent-- I think this is true, I've never really had a bloodhound. But once they're on the scent, they stay on the scent. They don't lift their head and say, "I think it's over there on that hilltop. Let me just do a shortcut." 

So I've tried to follow the scent of consciousness, of the sacred, of that special thing that makes sense and nothing else really makes sense. I've tried to follow that my whole life, and I ended up spending a lot of time in Asia, a lot of different parts of Asia, and then decided to jump as high as I could from Southern California. The world was spinning and I landed in Thailand.

Luke Storey: [00:08:23] Wow. Wow.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:08:24] It was something like that.

Luke Storey: [00:08:25] And you live up in the mountains there?

Garnet Dupuis: [00:08:25] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:08:27] In Chiang Mai area?

Garnet Dupuis: [00:08:29] Outside of Chiang Mai. I'm a mountain forest guy and there's a lot there that is important to me. And I've lived enough in the cities.

Luke Storey: [00:08:41] Tell me about it.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:08:41] I do some wild animal rescue conservation work as well with Southeast Asian apes and that's a big deal for me.

Luke Storey: [00:08:50] Wow. Cool.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:08:52] Yeah. So I built another sanctuary and manage it.

Luke Storey: [00:08:54] Really?

Garnet Dupuis: [00:08:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot there.

Luke Storey: [00:08:56] Oh, man.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:08:57] There's a lot there. So I can't do that in Malibu.

Luke Storey: [00:09:01] Yeah, Yeah, definitely not.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:09:03] Yeah, but I lived 30 years in Southern California.

Luke Storey: [00:09:05] Yeah, me too. 32.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:09:06] Yeah. Wow. Wow.

Luke Storey: [00:09:07] 32. This is my first attempt at an escape from urban life but I'm still--

Garnet Dupuis: [00:09:12] It's good.

Luke Storey: [00:09:14] I'm still within 30 minutes from the city, but to me, this feels pretty country after living in Hollywood all those years. But-- 

Garnet Dupuis: [00:09:21] Okay, that's fair.

Luke Storey: [00:09:22] But when I get really far out, I always have the feeling like, no, no, I need to be living out here. But then the practicality of how you do that sets in.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:09:32] Okay, but this is the whole point is about the adaptation to change, which is really at the core of what I think we'll talk about today, NeuroVizr and this whole thing, two words that begin with C lock me into my focus. Consciousness, that we've already mentioned and the other is change. To me, the dynamics of change totally fascinate me because adaptation or learning or growing all these things mean to some degree in some way that here you are and you're going to be different. There has to be some change.
And yeah, I'm a sucker for alliteration. Maybe I like language. Not as much as Jamie. Jamie is in love with words. I'm a Jamie fan.

Luke Storey: [00:10:31] Jamie Will?

Garnet Dupuis: [00:10:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear he's like, Mr. Word.

Luke Storey: [00:10:34] Yeah, that was a fun podcast. I've had this experience a few times where I find like, I'm just barely hanging on to someone, intellectually. I'm not trying to belittle myself, is you meet someone that's really brilliant like that, and especially such a wordsmith and just a brilliant orator, I just sit there and go, "Okay. Hang on, Luke. Stay in it." It's like fighting Mike Tyson.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:10:59] But these days that would be okay.

Luke Storey: [00:11:02] Yeah. Yeah.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:11:03] Anyway, okay, a little bit of wordplay, but to me, I've spent a good part of my life trying to understand and appreciate that if you make a change, you have a chance to make a choice.

Luke Storey: [00:11:19] Ooh, nice.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:11:20] Change. Chance. Choice. And I spent most of my life under a Tibetan Zhongshan teacher, but a lot of my life under a Korean Daoist teacher. And Daoism is all about the dynamics of change. The I Ching, the oldest binary analysis of change, I Ching means classic of change. So it's all like change. And then the big hot news neurologically, it's not that long ago but we can say about 15 years ago is that the human adult brain. 

We saw it before, it would change, but only to degenerate. And of course, everybody-- not everybody, but most of us know that the news is that the human adult brain can change for the positive. So here's that word change again. So understanding what change is, how to change, how to harness change, to me, seems to be like the game plan. Adaptation. You mentioned it. I'm a farm boy in Canada and I'm living in the mountains in northern Thailand with apes. That's not exactly linear. 

So how do we deal with change? Because change is going to happen. How do we do it in a way that is positive? That's the primary intrigue in my life, which is why the technology that I do now is built on the dynamics of change. It's all about change and consciousness. I don't think you can have consciousness without change.

Luke Storey: [00:13:03] So it's like change is inevitable, but the direction of that change and the outcome is dependent on our intention and I guess the means by which we change. Because you can set an intention to change but not have the proper tools and resources and fail at that change. And if you just do nothing and just go into entropy, then essentially in terms of brain health and just functionality, you're going to degrade. So the change is going to happen, but it's going to be the inertia of nature that's dragging you into a decline.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:13:37] Well, this is it. This is how I spend most of my time at this point in my life is trying to understand that with not only the philosophical attitudes that support it, but also with the best of neurological science that is understanding it, in some cases, making it more clear, giving you the base for methods. 

A lot of the work that I do now, frankly, is based on a mountain of research that has a different context. The context has changed with the idea, the understanding that your brain, my brain, no matter what the state of your brain today, it can be better tomorrow. It's like, well. I'll repeat it. No matter what the state of your brain today, if you know how, your brain can be better tomorrow.

Luke Storey: [00:14:32] That's good news.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:14:33] That's great news. That's great news.

Luke Storey: [00:14:35] As you say that, I'm thinking back to long periods of time, epochs of time in my life where my brain was just really in bad shape. And thus were my emotions and just the thoughts that I lived with and of course, the actions that manifested out of that state of being in the world were much less than positive for anyone I interacted with because there was so much inherent suffering as a result of that mental dysfunction, some of it physical, some of it spiritual, that disconnection from self and from truth, meaning, consciousness.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:15:12] Here are two questions that I sometimes juice a group with. One is, "Would you like to live a long life? Raise your hand." For the most part, they say, okay, that's cool. Long life. Do you know statistically in industrialized countries, most of us live in them, that between the age of 80 and 85, which is pretty much a long life these days, very probable, the chances of you experiencing dementia are about 50/50. 

So Happy birthday, Luke. Here's a coin. Flip it. Heads. You're okay. Tails. You have dementia progressing towards Alzheimer's. Is like, well, let me roll back a little bit on this thought. The other is the odd separation that, well, some of us have at least we separate the brain from the body. We are into fitness and to health and what I'm doing and tracking how many burps you did today and everything that's happening.

And then the question of, well, what have you done for your brain today? List all the things you've done, and okay, there's some new topics or this or that. But the fact is, is that the brain is physical. When I go like this, my brain is lighting up. So I think divorcing or neglecting or denying brain wellness, brain health is a mistake. And the fact is, in the same way that exercise sports medicine has gone through incredible analytical growth over the past 30, 40 years, how to optimize, we have to do that for the brain. 

Or else guess what? You live a long life, but the you is going bit by bit, day by day. And that's tragic. That's horrible. And it's practically epidemic. It's practically epidemic. So if you could do something to save your ass and your brain, it's probably a good idea.

Luke Storey: [00:17:29] Yeah, I love that perspective. A lot of people that are into the health and biohacking seem to have an interest in living a really long time in the longevity aspect and when I think about that, I get scared. It's like, I just turned 52 the other day, my vision is not so great. You're a little blurry right there, but I don't want to get addicted to--

Garnet Dupuis: [00:17:50] That helps the wrinkles, man.

Luke Storey: [00:17:52] I don't want to get addicted to wearing glasses, other issues, back pain, weird stuff. Tinnitus in my ear. It's like I have the signs of aging yet overall, my vitality, my energy, my sleep quality, I've never been healthier ever if you just go metabolically. Labs are all great and all that, but, man, I wouldn't want to live a day longer if I was in deep suffering or didn't have the capacity to enjoy life.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:18:20] What happens if the lights start to get dim and one of the first things is typically memory and then analytical recall and then famously names. And it's like, wait a minute, because we were told we as a culture, we're told up until pretty recently and it's still really isn't like front page news, that the only thing that happens to your brain is it degenerates. You can't grow new brain cells. I don't know if you remember hearing these things.

Luke Storey: [00:18:50] Yeah, I do.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:18:50] Well, that's wrong. Well, it's not wrong. In context, yes, you can lose brain cells. That's bad. However, you can also grow new ones. That's good. So let's do the full sentence here, I say. 

Luke Storey: [00:19:06] Let's tell the whole truth.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:19:06] Let's do the whole--

Luke Storey: [00:19:07] You reminded me when I was a teenager in my early life, I was terribly-- 

Garnet Dupuis: [00:19:12] You had a late life.

Luke Storey: [00:19:15] I was terribly addicted to cannabis from when I was a little kid. I started smoking it very young and just trauma and all the things that make a kid want to check out. And so I did so but I started really young. They say, your brain isn't fully developed until you're 25, 26. I got sober when I was 26, and started using when I was about eight or nine. And so that whole period of when my brain was supposed to be developing, I'm not only throwing cannabis at it but later on all other sure toxic shit too. 

But there was all of this in the '80s, there was all of this propaganda around like, yeah, marijuana is going to make you grow breasts. And you used to see this in the doctor's office. That might be true because I'm--

Garnet Dupuis: [00:19:56] I'm sitting up straight.

Luke Storey: [00:19:57] I'll probably be at A-cup by now, but there were years when I did not have man boobs after smoking copious amounts of weed. But when I ended up getting sober, I was o afraid like because I was so damaged mentally, I was so afraid I would never be able to come back because of all that misinformation, really, that once you've damaged your brain with drugs and weed and all this, that you're just stuck in that dimly lit awareness for the rest of your life.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:20:25] You're a dumb ass.

Luke Storey: [00:20:26] Exactly. And there were many years, probably 10, where I really felt dumb because I didn't have resources like the NeuroVizr and nootropics and all the things that I've done, hyperbaric chambers, and all the great things you can do for your neuroplasticity and circulation in the brain. So it's really good news to know now that science has evolved to the point where we understand now you can actually-- 

Garnet Dupuis: [00:20:48] More at least.

Luke Storey: [00:20:49] Yeah, we understand a little instead of nothing.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:20:52] It's like a massive difference between nothing and it's like all the infinite spaces between zero and one.

Luke Storey: [00:20:57] Right, right, right. Okay.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:20:59] I got to have to toss this in because you mentioned the age thing. I have a formula about how we should measure age. 25 is neurologically the claim, but I just say 20 because it's an easier number to do the math. I think that a person should count their age, whatever it is, you said you're 52?

Luke Storey: [00:21:19] Yeah.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:21:20] Okay. -20, so you're a 32-year-old adult. I think you can claim 32 because the first 20 are growing up and confused. So when you speak to somebody, I think knowing their adult age makes a lot more sense than knowing their birth chronological age. For example, you're that, so that makes you 32 years old. I'm 73, so that makes me 53 years old. 

In terms of life experience as an adult, I think that gives a person a much better fair shake at decisions that they make and what they've done and achieved and the whole thing. You can wipe out the first 20 years because who knows, everything happens, but then you're in the saddle.

Luke Storey: [00:22:12] So I think that's a great principle and that makes a lot of sense to me, especially thinking about how misguided I was, really, if I'm honest, it is probably until I was 35. I started to get a little bit of a clue of how to act in the world.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:22:30] I'm not sure this is on topic, but I have a lot of theories.

Luke Storey: [00:22:33] I love it. Throw them out. 

Garnet Dupuis: [00:22:35] Okay. One is I don't think a woman really comes into herself-- I'm averaging. I think when she hits around 40, that's the time. She's going to pretty much know what she wants, what she doesn't want, what she'll accept, what she won't accept. That's my general experience so far. Not that I've had a lot of experience with women, you get my point? But I think the same cycle is about 50 for a man.

Luke Storey: [00:23:03] I'm not going to argue.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:23:04] Yeah, I think around about that time.

Luke Storey: [00:23:06] I'm two years on the other side of 50 and I really think and maybe I would have thought this when I was 42 also, but I think now in my life I'm just starting to get a grip on things.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:23:17] There you go. 

Luke Storey: [00:23:17] Like I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing here and why I'm doing it. But if you asked me that 15 years ago, there's a lot of confusion, at the very least ambiguity about what this thing is all about or confusion.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:23:32] Anyway, here we are running around the racetrack.

Luke Storey: [00:23:35] Yeah, this is great. I knew from listening to a couple of your other interviews, and I'm glad you haven't done a ton of them. I know you do a lot of public speaking, but you haven't been on 50 podcasts and I'm like, number 51. So I knew we were going to have a great conversation. One that I probably wouldn't need notes for, but there were some things I definitely wanted to specifically--

Garnet Dupuis: [00:23:54] Yeah. Yeah, go for it.

Luke Storey: [00:23:55] Ask you about yourself. And for those listening, how I met Garnet was through Dr. Hal Harry in LA, who's been on the show. He sent me a link to your NeuroVizr, this thing here. And he's pretty trustworthy when it comes to cool stuff. He doesn't just text me random stuff. He's like, "This thing's amazing. You got to get one." It's a development they're just launching, etc. So that's how I found out about you. But I'm curious, what did you do for work and a career and things like that before you launched this brand and this product?

Garnet Dupuis: [00:24:28] Okay. I mentioned I'm a farm boy. I like analogy. So I learned young that you had to milk all four tits of the cow.

Luke Storey: [00:24:37] I like it.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:24:38] All right. So my whole life has been in integrative healthcare and wellness one way or the other. So these are the four tits, by the way, in case you wonder what I'm doing here. One has been a practitioner, the other is an educator, another is a consultant/businessman and the other is inventor designer. This is on the edge of sounding like bullshit, but it isn't for me, that it just seems one topic. It's all one thing and I love reading and research.

And I used to get really uptight because I wanted to finish this book because I had all these other books they wanted to read. And at one point I thought, it's just all one book. So if generally, I read 10 books at a time roughly, and I'll just surf from one to the other and it's just a lot more comfortable. 

So what did I do? I did the first-day spa in LA in '88. I have a big 20-year-old spa in Bangkok now, and I have a Singapore-based company and Thai and Estonian, and developing tech. And I've done a lot of consulting. I'm just like, damned lucky, number one. And number two, damned lucky. And number three, no risk, no reward. So I've been-- I don't know the word anymore. It's like a hard word. It sticks in my throat, but I've been spiritual my whole life. I've never had a choice. It would have been a choice to not follow that path.

So I'm deeply interested in consciousness, and I follow traditions seriously and practices. And I had a fantastic, positive experience with psychedelics when I was younger. I don't do it now because of experimentation with the device, microdosing, and these things. I'm a boring guy. I don't drink, and I don't smoke. I don't just like, what do you do? Well, I try to open my mind and my brain and I take care of apes. And here I am.

Luke Storey: [00:27:00] To me, that's exciting. There's nothing more interesting than meditating. There would have been a time in my life when that was not true, but the places one can go when you're exploring consciousness, or at least to me, infinitely more interesting than here in the 3D--

Garnet Dupuis: [00:27:15] No, I want to be right here. This is my trip right now. This is my meditation right now. If I don't take the chance to just soak you and this up, then all the other stuff I have misunderstood.

Luke Storey: [00:27:31] That's a great point.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:27:32] We did everything in our life for this exact instant. So don't miss the parade.

Luke Storey: [00:27:43] So an integration. That's the word that comes to mind.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:27:47] We'll talk about that because I've got a gun loaded on information integration.

Luke Storey: [00:27:51] Okay. Okay.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:27:52] I got a lot of guns here, man. I'm in Texas. Lock and load.

Luke Storey: [00:27:56] Yeah, you certainly are, so you're in the thick of it now.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:28:00] All right. All right. I have trouble over that, but that's okay.

Luke Storey: [00:28:07] I'm pretty much obsessed with water. In fact, I've dedicated around a dozen shows to it. Why? Because water is the basis of all life, including ours. 99% of the molecules in our body are made of water. I've been playing around with ways to restore the natural structure or odor of my water for years. And to be honest, until now, it's been challenging to determine what works and what doesn't. 

So I was beside myself with excitement when I found this thing called the Analemma Wand. From the moment I got it, I have literally used it on all of our drinking water ever since. And I even use it to structure the water in our pool and ice baths. Check it out. 

The guys over at Analemma did a study showing it unleashes the body's own natural rejuvenating power, resulting in 1 to 12 years of biological age regeneration within only three months. It's crazy. And drinking Analemma water powerfully benefits the brain by calming your brain waves almost instantly. But perhaps the coolest part of all is that it's so easy to use. You simply stir your water with the court's wand for about 30 seconds, and that water retains its structure for years. 

To find out more, visit analemmawater.com and use the code LUKE5 to get 5% off your purchase. That's A-N-A-L-E-M-M-A, analemmawater.com and the code is LUKE5. And if all of this sounds too good to be true, give a listen to Episode 431 where the inventors break down all the research and science on this thing. It's pretty incredible. 

A lot of people that have listened to this show for a while have heard people use the term brain entrainment. So I've interviewed all kinds of people into neurofeedback and all things. And I noticed that you use a different term in conjunction to the work you're doing with NeuroVizr and that's brain engagement. So maybe you could break down the defining characteristics of those [inaudible].

Garnet Dupuis: [00:30:00] Yeah, I'd be happy to. It's a biggie. Because I've been doing this for a while. I mentioned my age. So biohacking to me is the sequel to the human potential movement. Do you know the definition of a sequel?

Luke Storey: [00:30:17] What?

Garnet Dupuis: [00:30:17] Take something that you've done right and keep on doing it until you get it wrong.

Luke Storey: [00:30:22] That's good. That's good. Let's put that in history. That is definitely [interposing voices].

Garnet Dupuis: [00:30:26] Okay. Anyway brand engagement, I was involved in brain entrainment in the mid-80s, and it's a principle which is based on a neurological fact. It's called The Frequency Following Response. It was recognized in the '30s. Nobody knew what to do with it. It went to sleep. Technology was too poor anyway to really be analytical. Came alive in the '60s, pretty much in the '70s. We know this, listen to music and you tap your foot and you don't have to have effort to do it because the brain will tend to follow a repeated signal, a frequency following response. 

So the word that evolved was brain entrainment for frequency following. So those two things mean the same thing. And this was a real big deal in the early ages of biofeedback and brain entrainment all hit pretty much early mid-80s. Brain entrainment works, but not as well as you'd like. This is the honest truth in my opinion. And it sucks at neuroplasticity change. And I'll tell you why.
I'm interested in neuroplastic change. I use brain entrainment in certain purposes, brain entrainment reinforces existing order in the brain. It's very important to understand. In the model, the entropic brain model, which inevitably I'll talk about because I must that there is an upper zone of information access and a lower zone of information integration. Integration is really important in the brain because it lets us do what we're doing right now. When I look at you, your head doesn't turn into flames. Well, it is right now. Let me call that. 

That we have a reliable interpretation of what's going on. That reliability is from the neo-Darwinian, it really is good for survival. When you walk down the stairs, your foot goes to where you think the step is. We need that. Brain entrainment helps reinforce existing order in the brain. It works at cementing certainty. I'm interested in the polarity of that, the complimentary thing where there are times when what you have as a pattern doesn't match the adaptive demand. You've got to make something new. 

So how do you make something new? Well, brain entrainment doesn't do that. Brain entrainment reinforces-- and I'll tell you, precisely the formula of how to get the brain to change. There's a precise formula and you'll see that the brain entrainment, which is not a bad thing, I'm not coming down on brain entrainment, but it's like salt and pepper. Don't think salt is pepper. Salt is salt. Brain entrainment works at fortifying pre-existing orders, what are called technically the priors that are in the brain. 

So because I'm interested in change and I know those techniques don't act towards the dynamics of change, they don't act towards neuroplasticity triggering, I think, well, I'm going to call it something different. So I thought, I made up a term called brain engagement. And this is the big deal. This is a real big deal, is knowing how to engage the brain for dynamic change. So this is the quickie. I'm a talker. So jump in any time.

Luke Storey: [00:34:15] We've got plenty of time.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:34:16] Okay. Well, I love plenty of time.

Luke Storey: [00:34:18] This is a podcast where we don't leave anything out.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:34:22] Okay. What's for dinner?

Luke Storey: [00:34:24] In many cases, somebody has to drag us out of here or the next guest shows up or so I'm like, "Oh, we got to end." But no, we're fine. Please elaborate.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:34:32] There are three things in any method for neuroplasticity change that you have to have. It doesn't matter what the technique is. These three principles or elements have to be there. And for camera, there's a secret sauce of fourth. So the first thing is the technique, the method requires sustained attention, focus, attention without tensionity. So you've got to be drawn into it. It holds a magnetic quality. 

And when you think of it, pleasure and pain, what do they have in common? So I always use this analogy. So if it's on camera somewhere else, I apologize. Let's say right now that I took an ice pick and jammed it several times into your left knee. I assume that would be painful. Let's say, and this is maybe a bit peculiar, but we can imagine it. Let's say suddenly your left knee has some orgasm, very pleasurable. What are those two things have in common? Your attention goes to your left knee. 

So there's something precisely important about matching adaptive demand that both pain and pleasure use your attention. That's number one. Number two is this thing called marginal demand. If you can lift 50 pounds, I'm not going to give you 70 pounds if I'm a trainer. I'm going to give you maybe 52 pounds or 55 pounds that there's a demand level that is marginal to your threshold. 

So it's a little bit difficult. It's not like really hard, but it's a little bit, that's why in the NeuroVizr sessions-- we'll talk about that where the light and sound are sometimes there's a little bit of a hoo-ha like hang in because of that marginal demand quality. So in that way, the brain responds to exercise principle, just like the body as a whole. All right. So what do you have to have for neuroplastic methodology? Sustained, focused attention, marginal demand. A little bit hard, but not really. 

And then the third thing, a little bit more diffuse is an open-minded belief, a willingness. You don't do this like, oh, this shit stupid. My wife makes me want to do it. I'll do it. But okay, but it's not going to work. That degrades the neuroplastic stimulation potential.

All right. And Alyson, you didn't hear that. Anyway, so those are the three. This is above brain entrainment, by the way. Focused attention, marginal demand, open-minded willingness, and the fourth, the secret sauce that exponentially kicks up these three is you enjoy it. Like, wow, I really love this doing that because it's a very complex neural hormonal state called enjoy. Enjoy is special, neural hormonally. So if you toss in that alchemy of enjoyment, the other three work better.

Okay. Now, brain entrainment, again, not coming down on it, it is what it is. Frequency following response means that when the signal repeats over and over again, your brain will follow it automatically. You don't have to have focused attention.

And because the signal actually superimposes on the brain for about 6 minutes, then the brain might start to fire up on its own. But that's a side point. That you don't have to pay attention because your brain will follow the frequency because it is so predictable. If it's so predictable, don't worry, it's going to happen because our brain is basically a prediction-making organ. It looks for predictability. That's a lot of the other entropic brain theory, and it's not difficult.

There's no marginal demand. As a matter of fact, it's easy. As a matter of fact, you don't even have to "pay attention." Just lay back and listen to whatever it is. So what you see is the cardinal first and second elements that make a neuroplastic technique engage the brain are absent in brain entrainment.

Luke Storey: [00:39:08] Wow. That's super cool. Very interesting distinction. Would you give a couple of examples for those that are unaware of some modality that would use the entrainment? Would it be binaural beats or neurofeedback or something of that nature?

Garnet Dupuis: [00:39:22] If I hear binaural beats again, I will. Yes. I have a little bit of emotion attached to binaural beats because it was so well understood. The first public publication, it was Scientific America, 1973 binaural beats. There's this phenomena that you put something here and a little something different here, and the brain gets the middle. So 20 hertz here, 25 hertz there. And the brain says, oh, it's about five hertz. 

So it's real. It works. It's audio for the most part, although there is some secret talk about bina-optics, we'll skip that. But binaural, was also understood because it was a lot of heavy-duty research at the time. There was a lot of promise unfulfilled, I have to say. Read books like Mega Brain and so on that were written in the mid-late '80s. This stuff was-- I was going to say shit. This stuff was going to change everything and it did. 

So anyway, it was understood that binaural beats work as a superimposition. And if you continue regularly for about 6 minutes minimum, then the brain would probably start to pick up and do it before that is called superimposition. The brain is not really following it. It's being forced upon the brain. It overrides the brain, superimposition. 

And then the brain will say, okay I give up, I'll do it. So it was well understood in publications and good research papers that binaural beats work, but not very well. Isochronic, which can be as irritating as a dog that won't stop barking, work very very well. So what you find out is that crafting soundscapes, I'll call them, with Isochronic or Monochronic that work really, really well is tough because you've got to be artful at putting in those sounds that could be irritating as all hell.

Luke Storey: [00:41:30] Like a pink noise sound.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:41:31] Yeah, you do that. Otherwise, it's like mi, mi, mi, mi, mi, mi, mi, mi--

Luke Storey: [00:41:36] You reminded me of something I forgot about. I used to do these Hemi-Sync tracks.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:41:41] Yeah. Yeah. Same deal.

Luke Storey: [00:41:42] From the Monroe Institute.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:41:43] Yeah. Let's astral project together. That was the whole--

Luke Storey: [00:41:46] I used to listen to that stuff for hours because my head was on fire and it felt like cool water.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:41:52] Okay. You're a stoic. Good for you. Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:41:55] I remember some of those tracks were really weird. Like wa wa wa wa, those kind of stuff.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:41:59] Well, I'll give you a credit then you hung in. But most people won't want to hang in, especially because we're so conditioned that-- I sometimes swear, so if shit slips out--

Luke Storey: [00:42:10] Oh, no, it's fine. That's fine.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:42:11] So we want shit to always be pleasant or good or out or whatever. So the thing is with binaural beats is that it's drop-dead easy to make any fluid celtic harp or bird or whatever, and you have this kind of [humming] back in there. So it's pleasant for the listener. It's not as irritating as it potentially could be if you don't know how to do it. So it is like dumb ass easy-- sorry-- to make brain entrainment using binaural beats. The fact is, and I'm sorry, it's just that they don't work as well as other brain signaling for the frequency following response.

Luke Storey: [00:42:57] And we're still talking about entrainment here.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:42:59] That's entrainment.

Luke Storey: [00:42:59] Not the other category, the engagement.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:43:03] The engagement, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:43:04] So where would neurofeedback and different biofeedback, would any of them be from your perspective, classified within that first category?

Garnet Dupuis: [00:43:15] No, it's different. To understand neurofeedback, neurofeedback is really the only form of biofeedback that has persisted into popular sense. I was involved in early biofeedback a lot. I have a degree in it and so on. So neurofeedback is excellent. There are competing theories amongst different societies or practitioners, so it's not dead on certain, but it's very good. 

And depending on the skill of the practitioner and the philosophy they work with, it's really good because you can see pretty much real-time behaviors going on in a person's brain and help to coach them towards other states or behaviors. It's really good. It's highly dependent, in my opinion, on the skill of the practitioner, and do know that there are different methodological philosophies involved in it. So it's not only one thing.

Luke Storey: [00:44:12] Totally. Yeah, I've done neurofeedback with a number of different practitioners and they all had in some cases pretty polarized points of view about what works, what doesn't, how you do it, how you don't, what the benefits are. And there's not a consensus in the neurofeedback community--

Garnet Dupuis: [00:44:27] There you go.

Luke Storey: [00:44:27] -- about what it is and how you use it essentially.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:44:31] Absolutely. It's credible, it's interpretive and it's not because they don't know what they're doing. It's because the brain is a lot more complex. One of the-- oh, we won't go down there. I have many-- I'm like Google Maps here. I can go in all these different directions. I don't want to bury you in my esoteric--

Luke Storey: [00:44:55] No, I do. I love it. And if anyone listens to this show on a regular basis, they're here for that.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:44:59] Okay. All right. So hit me.

Luke Storey: [00:45:02] Yeah, I wanted to ask you then about brain priming and sensory enrichment.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:45:08] Yeah. Okay, now we're getting juicy. Well, let's talk sensory enrichment first. I'm a Canadian-born US citizen, live in Thailand, blah blah. A Canadian guy named Hebb, H-E-B-B, in the late '40s, actually, he's the father of neuroplasticity, was very much intrigued about the possibility of progressive brain improvement and growth. At that time, this is 75 years ago almost, people didn't tune in. His theory ended up being called Hebbian learning. We call it neuroplasticity. 

Okay. So he was intrigued by sensory input. And this is a monstrously big topic of sensory perception, bottom-up in relation to cognitive conception, top-down. This is like the money shot of the topic we'll get to, sensory enrichment. So what he did, he said lab rats, same strains, same species, everything, same food, everything the same except their environment. One had a boring environment, one had a very enriched environment. That's it.

And they sacrifice the rats later on. And not only were they behaving differently when they were alive, but the boring ones also are aggressive and moody and territorial, and the enriched ones seem to be like Mardi Gras. It's like life's pretty good. So by behavior, this is different. 

Then they open up their heads, gross, look at the brains and the physical brains of the sensory enriched rats were very different. They had all of these complex synaptic. They had neurogenesis. Nerves were growing. Areas of the brain were bigger than the other rats. The only thing was their environment.

So that was the birth of what's called environmental enrichment. And right now I was on a panel with a couple of Thai neurologists a couple of months ago, and they have this process now in at least a couple of the hospitals where they have rooms set up and they use those rooms either for autistic kids or for early dementia because they know that the enrichment of the environment is a generalized, nonspecific neuroplastic trigger. All right. 

Okay. So five things. If you do these five things, you will faithfully trigger nonspecific or generalized neuroplastic growth, which means it's ready to be absorbed into some new topic, new skill. Five things. First thing, combine two of the senses. These days in autism is very popular among certain communities of technique. They combine touch and smell. You combine two senses for a unified experience. I combined light and sound.
Number two, the experience should be uncommon. It's not the thing that you normally encounter during your average day. It's unusual. It's unique. That's number two. Combine two senses, unique, dminish or free from distraction. So there shouldn't be other shit happening to compete. So combine two unusual or uncommon, no distraction. The fourth one is you're not forced to do it. You do it of your own free will. Not like tying you down and doing clockwork.

Luke Storey: [00:48:58] It goes back to the secret sauce of enjoyment. 

Garnet Dupuis: [00:49:01] That's the fifth one.

Luke Storey: [00:49:02] Okay.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:49:03] That's the fifth one. The same thing that it should or needs to be pleasant or enjoyable. If you do these five--

Luke Storey: [00:49:12] I guess you could do something willingly, but you're not necessarily ecstatic about doing so.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:49:16] Well, that's why I call it the secret sauce. It's this very peculiar motivating experience called enjoy. So undeniably all the way back to brains of yester years rats, to this point right now, there is this big thing called environmental enrichment. There's a subset called sensory enrichment. And I work with sensory enrichment processes because they will reliably trigger generalized neuroplastic growth. 

Then what you do is you insert a vector or a theme or a purpose, and the brain is ready, willing, and able to absorb it. So sensory enrichment is a 70, 75-year-old methodology that now is being resurrected because of neuroplasticity like, oh, it's real. Hebbian Learning, thanks Hebb, but now we'll call it neuroplasticity and we can do it and it works. That's just research fact. 75, I'm 73, so it's older than me. I didn't think anything was older than me. 

And then the other on the quickie is brain priming. Priming basically is a real simple concept that you do something first so that the second thing works better. And that was the big ooh la, la 64 Olympics where the East Germans were doing weird things. And it's like, "What's happening?" Because there are different kinds of brain family. They're actually six categories. We'll skip the details. 

But one of them we see all the time. If you watch basketball, the free throw, not Shaq from those days, you'd see the guy doing like this. And then taking the shot. Well, he was priming his brain so that the second action would be better. If you do sensory enrichment processes automatically, what it does is it primes the brain for whatever you do next. 

Not a product pitch, but a fact. I see the NeuroVizr technology as everybody's best friend. I'm not in competition with any device or any method. You could do your yoga or you're going to do your neurofeedback. We have neurofeedback practitioners that use the Vizr before and in a 50-minute session it drops 20 minutes off their session. The person drops right into a response at a third to almost 40% of the session faster. 

Why? Because the brain is primed through a sensory enrichment process so that it's hungry. That's the whole point. Brain priming makes the brain hungry for information.

Luke Storey: [00:52:11] Wow. Interesting. Well, that would explain why this morning I did two back-to-back 11-minute journeys with the NeuroVizr.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:52:18] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [00:52:19] Just because Alyson and I have been meditating together for 20 minutes, and it's a new thing we started doing and so I was like, wow, I run a double. I usually only do one. And then I was like, "Oh, man, he's coming soon, you, in him. I got to get my notes prepped. And I went into my office and I had actually not-- even though I was in a hurry per se, I was not stressed about getting prepared and I found that my mental capacity was really high. 

I was able to be logical and creative and have fun with it. It's really interesting. So without even knowing that priming thing, I've been playing with the NeuroVizr specifically before I need to do something that's either mentally demanding or creative which for me usually happens at a computer. I'm doing something for work. So that makes perfect sense.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:53:05] Hey, let's talk about 20 minutes. I can't let that one slide.

Luke Storey: [00:53:08] Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Because that was another question I had is why are the journeys are in the NeuroVizr app, I think you have five or 11 minutes you can choose and I was always curious about that. And is there any harm in doing 20 minutes or 22 minutes I guess effectively? 

Garnet Dupuis: [00:53:24] No, those are all right. Okay. Why? Again, neurologically based that the average human brain is able to stay with sustained attention for between 10 and 12 minutes. A simple amount of training and you get to that point. Then you've got to do a refresh. And then when you refresh, you can hit it again. But after the second refresh, all the local neurotransmitter sourcing is depleting. So you max out at around that time. 

So this is why in traditional Shaman to Buddhist meditation, vipassana, you train 20 minutes. All TM, you do 20 minutes twice a day. The handle device, which I think has gone bye-bye, you do that for 20 minutes, a motor primer. TED talks 18, 20 minutes. The old-- do you remember this TV show thing? The half-hour TV show, minus the commercials was 22 minutes with a break in between the first and the second. 

So these things evolve forward with efficiency because it's based on neurology. So I thought, well, because I do a lot of experimental work with different time periods, but for the Bambam, I do 11 minutes. And I put in 5 minutes because why not? It's a reinforcement, a refresher you don't have the time. Or you do 11 minutes, then you want to hit it a little bit. Or if you're on a vector or a theme, because these are all theme or vector designed, they move in certain directions what are technically called probability states. 

So if you're working with something in the focus category, it doesn't make you focus. It works towards the probability of enhancing that state. So you can't really make the brain be a certain way. The brain will have to cooperate unless you force it into an ordered state. I have brain entrainment in the device. There are some things I haven't released yet, so if you want, it's there. To me, it's the easiest thing in the world to design.

So the principle is to the best of my ability defensible in terms of neurology. Of course, there's the artist part of me, the ones that is creative, but I try to stay in between the two fence posts on the whole thing neurologically.

Luke Storey: [00:56:12] Cool cool. That's helpful. Also, another thing I did this morning was, I guess maybe not long enough before I did my NeuroVizr session, but for breakfast, I had probably about 10 micrograms of LSD, which is a good non-perceivable nootropic dose. I find that once or twice a week-- I actually did it yesterday. Normally, I wouldn't do it two days in a row. I do it twice a week but spread out four different sessions.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:56:42] If you want Stem over Fadiman.

Luke Storey: [00:56:44] Yeah. But I was like, I got two interviews today, I felt so good yesterday and so focused and creative.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:56:49] You've got two today?

Luke Storey: [00:56:50] Yeah. One after you. Yeah.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:56:53] You got a lot. Are you seeing somebody else?

Luke Storey: [00:56:54] Yeah. Yeah. Like cheating on me, man, but anyway--

Garnet Dupuis: [00:56:58] Dude, I have the whole day.

Luke Storey: [00:57:00] I had a great NeuroVizr session, and it was maybe only an hour after. So I don't know if it had kicked in per se, but it seems to me that NeuroVizr could on its own for someone that's never interested in micro-dosing psychedelics at all, seems like it has a similar effect. Is that true? And is there any risk or benefit involved with doing what I did this morning of stacking a microdose with the technology?

Garnet Dupuis: [00:57:34] Two answers, different but both true. One is with what I assume you have access to, it's very similar to microdosing and highly compatible. However, probably next year I have a full microdosing app. The whole thing designed specifically on the neurology of microdosing.

Luke Storey: [00:58:00] Oh wow. 

Garnet Dupuis: [00:58:02] And it's built-in, but it's also thematic, which is a huge thing. Plus, a giant reward is the fact that you have a very rich reward experience when you're doing it. Unlike microdosing where yeah, I have a lot of buddies men and women that it's like micro-mezzo because they're like, "I got to be a little bit high." So again, this is, in my opinion, hard-ass neurology that it's defensible. 

And I write a bunch of things sometimes for Biohackers magazine, and I published an article called Is Microdosing a Unique form of Brain Priming? And the conclusion is yes. And here's the short story, because all the stories can be long. When it comes to neuroplasticity, there are four-- I use my hands a lot. I used to teach a lot.

Luke Storey: [00:59:06] Well, that's right. You have your own dedicated camera. So the people that are at least watching this podcast will be able to see what you're doing.

Garnet Dupuis: [00:59:12] Okay. Thank you. They're called the four activation phases of neuroplasticity. And it's quite well appreciated by this point that there's an initial stimulation and I'll give you some of the timelines on this. There's an initial stimulation, then there's a modulation phase where sensitive things calm down and the doors start to open. And then there's a relaxation phase where the changes get to move around because the sensitivity is not blocking them. 

Then there's a differentiation phase where they integrate into the system. This is a very predictable four-phase process with any neuroplasticity technique. There's stimulation, modulation, relaxation,  differentiation. Okay. When you do the NeuroVizr or any other well-crafted Neuroplastic technique but I can say certainly if you do a NeuroVizr technique because it's based on that. 

It's hard to maybe accept, but the real effects begin when the light and sound end. Again an analogy. Eat food. You're hungry? Eat, enjoy, taste, textures, color, the whole thing, yeah. When you finish eating, you begin digesting. And the whole point it is enjoyable. Otherwise, maybe we wouldn't eat. So Neuro-Darwinian, again, it's for survival purposes, we're supposed to enjoy doing it, and we do for the most part. 

The light and sound are the stimulation phase. And then when that ends, that's when the integration starts. So like today, when you finish doing the one or two for 1 to 2 hours, you're in a state called hyperplastic. You are supersensitized for information input, and that's the stimulation. The stimulation phase is about on the outside around about two hours. That's in any methodology that you have that potential for information access that you would not normally have. 

Then after that, there's a period where it will max and kick up about eight hours later. The modulation phase is from two to eight hours. So that eight hours comes up again, but at a lower amplitude, like, oh, then the relaxation phase, 24 hours. Integration, not surprisingly, follows circadian cycle. It's like, well, that makes sense. And then the differentiation is that last 48. And then you pause and then you do it again. That is the three-day Fadiman microdosing schedule.

Luke Storey: [01:02:27] Oh, interesting.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:02:28] That's the neurological basis.

Luke Storey: [01:02:30] Do you think he knew that?

Garnet Dupuis: [01:02:31] I don't think so. I think he sourced it out.

Luke Storey: [01:02:34] Interesting.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:02:35] Because this stuff is not that old. So let's say, I don't know. The guy is a brilliant investigator, but this makes sense. So I'm more interested in the endpoint action than the agent. If you order something online, do you really care whether the knock of the door is DHL or FedEx?

Luke Storey: [01:03:04] Definitely not.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:03:05] It's like you got your shit, your stuff, your object. It's a habit.

Luke Storey: [01:03:12] I understand.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:03:13] Of course, I'm intrigued by the agents, but I'm far more interested in the endpoint actions. It's like the word psychedelic is normally used as a noun, an object. This is a psychedelic compound, but I like to use it as an adjective, a psychedelic effect. Like psychedelic art. You don't eat the art. That's not the point. So psychedelic can be used as an adjective. And this entropic brain. 

If we don't get to it in this talk, I seriously say dive into Robin Carhart-Harris and Imperial College, UK because they've developed this for a number of years now. It's incredibly elegant model of the brain that makes total sense with all that we're bumping into. It's just glorious, I think. 

So the brain is built for the psychedelic experience. Just because something is uncommon doesn't mean it's abnormal. That's important. Just because something is uncommon doesn't mean it's abnormal. And the psychedelic state can be achieved from many agents, from many avenues. Even if there is no single psychedelic state. And I had a real big one boeing, wow, rock aha moment about a year ago plotting out the neurology of these things. And I'm dead certain that Joseph Campbell, the hero's journey is specifically the neuroplastic phenomena. 

It describes exactly the brain neurology of habituation, the need for change, the decision to leave certainty and go into uncertainty, to leave the integration, to go into information, to have all these things, to have blah, blah, blah if you know the hero's journey and then to return with the treasure. I think it's evident to me in my little world that the hero's journey is the proto myth because it's an expression of the proto neurology of proto-consciousness. Every neuroplastic experience to me is a micro hero's journey.

Luke Storey: [01:05:52] Interesting.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:05:54] Absolutely.

Luke Storey: [01:05:56] Interesting.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:05:56] Absolutely.

Luke Storey: [01:05:57] I like that you're eliminating the fact that there are so many different means by which somebody can explore these realms because everyone has their own preference. To me, there's not anything in the realm of consciousness that I probably wouldn't try unless it's going to hurt someone else.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:06:14] Yeah, Yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:06:15] Because all of the different windows into God's mansion are interesting to me. They all have their own unique personality, but there are going to be certain people that would never want to put a light and sound device on their head because they're just not into technology. And there are other people that would love that and would never in a million years take even the micro-dose of something like psilocybin or LSD or people don't have a temperament for meditation or breathwork.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:06:44] Yeah, yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:06:45] Everyone has their own unique preference, but we all inherently deserve to have access to this neuroplasticity and this expansion and enlightenment of consciousness, at least for those that are interested.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:07:00] Well, it's adaptation and growth and the risk-- okay, here's another analogy. You're laying in bed on your right side and it's real comfy and you like it. After a while, oddly, it's not comfortable anymore. And you want to get on your left side. You can't go directly from your right side to your left side. You have to go through this thing called turning over. And when you turn over, you move into the realm of unpredictability. 

Well, I'm going to roll over. But you roll over, then your foot gets stuck in the blanket and you have to untwist it. And then you're turning over and then your pillow moves and then your wife says something, "Stop waking me up by just turning over." And finally, you end up on your left side. But then you wiggle in the side. So you can't go directly from old-- neurologically, you can't go directly from old order to new order. It's not a direct thing. You have to go through an abandonment of order. 

Chaos is not random. Chaos is just so complex. We don't know what the shit's going on, but there is still determinism in there. You want to turn over, not like the wind is blowing you there. So neurologically, we have to be able to let go to some degree in order for change to happen. And that capacity is native to our neurology. Forget about psychology right now because we really can't separate them. But that is the game.

Growth, learning, adaptation, tripping. I don't care what you call it. Again, there's a lot going on right now with brain modeling that is just the juiciest stuff because it helps me at least, and a lot of other people understand that old zone, the low zone, that's the realm of integration. 

And this upper zone, we'll call it the psychedelic zone. But I don't mean acid psychedelic. But why not? That's the zone of information. That's the hero's journey where you leave home and you go classically into the underworld, you go into the unknown, and you have trials and tribulations and tests and experiences and allies, and then you realize the treasure, and then you absorb the treasure, and then you leave that world and come back into the ordinary world with a treasure that you can share. That is the hero's journey. And that's how our brain works. That's how our brain works.

Luke Storey: [01:09:46] Wow. Yeah, it describes so many transcendent experiences. 

Garnet Dupuis: [01:09:47] It should.

Luke Storey: [01:09:47] That's really the crux of it if you had to map it out in a little infographic that a five-year-old would understand.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:09:59] Or any culture that lacked the analysis that we do but they know this is predictable. This is the way it works.

Luke Storey: [01:10:12] How does first language and neuro reality work?

Garnet Dupuis: [01:10:18] Well, I've been following a path of exploration and some amount of discovery and then you bump into things and we want to give it a name. I think even the unknown when we call it the unknown, we somehow feel a little better that the thing we don't know is the unknown now that we've named it.

And actually even in trauma programs, giving a feeling a name reduces the amygdala sensitivity. So if you have grief and you even give it a name like Georgie or grief so we want to give things names. We do. So I have this thinking because I like to work with principles. Nature is efficient. Once the principle works, you can expect you're going to find it some other place again. Because why? Because it works. And usually, it's pretty simple. There's this tendency where simple things done well, work well, why be complicated? 

So I thought, well, okay, I'm imagining some Jurassic Park, whatever. But when things are all growing and evolving on earth, when it's happening, when things are growing, it's all the same air, it's all the same sunshine, it's the same water, it's the same stuff. So when things are growing, inevitably there's going to be proximity. And if there's proximity, then there's bound to be interactions. And if there are enough interactions, there must be interrelationships that result from the interactions. 

And if they're interrelationships, there must be shared information. And that shared information must result in some kind of communication between things. And communications require a language. So what's the first language? I don't know. I think that it's a combination of mechanical vibration and electromagnetic radiation. Mechanical vibration requires a medium stuff, and electromagnetic radiation doesn't. It can cross through what we'll call a vacuum. 

So I think, mechanically vibrating and electromagnetically radiating formed the basis of the first language. Of course, mechanical vibration we call sound, and electromagnetic radiation we call light. So I think light and sound and all of their derivatives, they formed the basis of a first language. I think second language, pardon me-- I think second language is movement. I think third language is ideation and cognition.

And I think that complex beings like you and me and others, I'm not so sure about this plant, but I'll give it the credit that we don't throw away the first because we have the second, that we integrate. And that right now, first language is fully operational, as is second language as this third language. So that's my definition of first language, neural reality, because there's like VR virtual, augmented, and everything. I don't know if this is actual reality. I'm not quite sure. But I think, neuro reality it's a little bit of a play with maybe words.

But I think neural reality is when you turn the senses inward. It's like turning virtual reality inside out. So I don't know.  I was trying to be a little bit clever. I'm not sure. I was very clever. But I call it neuro reality. It's when you meditate or when you trip or watever it is that there is a reality that you encounter that is not primarily fed from the external senses.

Luke Storey: [01:14:09] Yeah. And non-local. I like it.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:14:13] Okay, well, that makes me happy too.

Luke Storey: [01:14:17] I like naming things too, especially because in the more etheric realm of ideas, as we're discussing here, in part it is difficult to describe them because there often is a lacking of terminology for some of this. We're making it up as we go, and so somebody's got to come up with what you call this state or that state because it doesn't exist. Things in the nonlinear realm, by their very nature are hard to define and name, so you've got to have something.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:14:47] Well, one thing it's not for the website, maybe it didn't make it in or something, but the NeuroVizr is now legal in all states of mind.

Luke Storey: [01:14:57] Dude, that's good. You guys got to use that. You got to use that. All right. We thrived right on through 2022, perhaps the weirdest year to date. And after the end of year, work obligations, and holiday family fun, it's easy to start the New Year stressed, worn out, and lacking motivation, which is definitely not the way we want to start the new year. 

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Okay, let's talk about something that you've called-- and maybe we've covered it again, these are terms that I'm like taking from your content. I'm just curious about Lucid Microdosing or Neurodosing.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:16:56] Yeah. Yeah. Well, we were talking about that. And let me see if I can recall. Well, the research was in the '50s, and I'm forgetting right now who is doing it. So I try to remember these things because then I'm not lying. Some of the first experiences or experiments happened in the '50s where they used phonic stimulation, flashing lights, and what they then called subclinical doses of mescaline. The research is there, anybody can read it.

Luke Storey: [01:17:33] It sounds fun.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:17:33] Yeah, and yes it is.

Luke Storey: [01:17:36] I'm in.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:17:38] Yeah, yeah. And I have been. And the reports were, it's a little overstated because they didn't have a lot of comparatives. Mescaline was real new at the time. You remember the '50s, it was the whole story of the folks discovering peyote, but the statements in the research was that if they did a subclinical dose of mescaline and did the photic stimulation that the subject had the visual experiences similar or equal to a full-dose of mescaline. 

And that's 75 years ago. So when I was designing, we don't know what to call it yet right now, lucid microdosing or neuro dosing, this is a little bit of a-- what do you call it? A spoiler because we're coming out next in 23 with this. It's all done. I've been developing this technology and the experiences over the past five years. I've done, I don't even know, thousands of hours of light, sound stimulations because I make them, I create them. So the chef has to taste the food. I have a lot.

Well, not pretty good. I'm very good at recognizing the saturation colors and the geometrics and all of it when I create a session or what you call the journey. So I've done both with psilocybin and mescaline, micro and wait a couple of hours and then run a NeuroVizr session. And the subjective, what I'll call enrichment, and actually that's the term they use in entropic brain as you move up, they call it degrees of enrichment or richness. Thirty, 40% more rich colors, geometric depth, perceptions, all of the inter-dimensionalities. 

So for me, again, in my little world, that shows me undoubtedly that a microdose, a subclinical sub-perceptual dose, is working in the brain dynamically because I will have evidence of that when I do the Vizr session that it lights up 30 to 40% more than normal. And I'm very good at recognizing what I'll call normal or common having done so much of it. 

So I think, well, shit, there you go. There you go. And then studying the neurology brain priming techniques, there's real strict methodology in designing a light sound session. So if you go in, you'll see the app, undoubtedly. That you choose whatever theme you want because I can move it in a probability state which you don't have a normal microdosing. That's just pure intention. So there's some advantage there. 

So then you choose. I put four. You choose a Fadiman protocol, Stamets, Microdosing Institute, or one more. The regular one. I forget the name. So you choose whatever one you want, and then you go into it and then it sets up the session. Let's say you're working on creativity, whatever. So there's a dose day, a trans day, and a norm day session, and they're tracking in the app. And then you know which one you did and you go back and you follow it. 

So the trick is-- well, there are many tricks actually. One of the tricks--

Luke Storey: [01:21:13] Indeed there are.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:21:15] One of the tricks is learning how and to what degree to destabilize the brain. Destabilization is really important. That's what a psychedelic will do. It destabilizes default mode network. And for God's sakes, another one, alpha.

Luke Storey: [01:21:31] Alpha brain waves you're referring to. Yeah.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:21:34] Pardon me. Alpha brain waves. Yes. And for one thing, there's no single state. But the thing about a psychedelic-- you have to understand, the alpha brain wave is the control freak of the brain. It's the control freak. It allows you calm, clear focus, and it reduces distractions. That's really a good thing. 

But a psychedelic of any sort, I'm not saying a psychedelic compound, but a psychedelic agent, suppresses alpha. The control freak is kicked out the back door, which allows all the unique, unusual network connections to take place because alpha, the control freak, ain't at the party.

Luke Storey: [01:22:18] Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:22:19] Yeah. That's right off the top. So when you're doing these kinds of methodologies, you have a very sensitive design factor when you consider the alpha element. Because if you insert alpha, then what happens is the brain wants to lock down again, but what you want is you want information access. Now this is, no dude, you've got to pay attention to what I'm focusing on. So destabilize the default mode network, reduce the sensitivity in the amygdala, suppress alpha. 

And now you've got a formula. And to how much you destabilize and how much you do that, ends up as being a dose day or a transition day or a norm day. So you play with the design characteristics to mimic what a psychedelic compound would do.

Luke Storey: [01:23:20] Wow. So this program that you're describing, this is going to be in the NeuroVizr app or its own thing in '23 or you don't know yet.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:23:29] Let's call it, it's going to happen for sure.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:23:31] Okay. We'll figure it out.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:23:34] Whether it comes in a round box or a square box, we'll figure that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:23:39] Yeah. That sounds really--

Garnet Dupuis: [01:23:40] It's a real big deal. I got to tell it's a real big deal.

Luke Storey: [01:23:42] I mean, that sounds like a massive breakthrough actually. That's--

Garnet Dupuis: [01:23:44] Well, it is in my head. I can say that for sure.

Luke Storey: [01:23:49] For those listening, I realized I just jumped into this stuff and started talking about this NeuroVizr and never really, I don't think, described what it is for people. So for those that are watching the video-- can you do me a favor there, Brandon? Give me a zoom-in. I'm just going to do a little demo. I know some people are listening and they're like, we can't see you. This is boring. But for those watching, so this is the app. And so I've just turned this headset device on.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:24:20] It's powered, right?

Luke Storey: [01:24:22] It's powered, yeah. I charged it up. And so it says, Find my device. It already found it. And then I've got a menu of different, I guess, state changes that I would like to explore. So Calm, Create, Explorer, Focus, Mood Peace.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:24:36] Like categories, right?

Luke Storey: [01:24:37] Right. Okay. So I like to-- for some reason, I often go into Create and then when I go into Create, there's a menu of different sessions in there that you can choose. And they each have their own music and different sort of soundscape and different patterns in the light. So I'm going to put one on just because I can, I think. Let me see here. People can hear the track a little bit.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:25:06] Yeah. There's full brain signaling in the soundscape as well. We'll talk more about that.

Luke Storey: [01:25:11] So I don't think I can-- I'm going to lose my mic if I put this on.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:25:15] Just don't lose your mind. Or maybe you can a little bit.

Luke Storey: [01:25:17] Essentially for those watching--

Garnet Dupuis: [01:25:19] Eyes closed.

Luke Storey: [01:25:20] Yeah, eyes closed. What you're seeing is just some white flashing lights in front of my face with this little Vizr that hangs over the eyes. What I'm seeing is, I mean, it changes. It's very dynamic. But right at the moment, it looks like a bunch of red lights that are flashing, sort of like scallop shapes, like a cascade of scallop shapes. And now there's gold and purple coming in. And I could go on and on and on. 

But what I find so fascinating about this and just the brain in general and how it interprets data, is that the brain sees just kaleidoscopes and fractals and geometric patterns and especially is very colorful. The actual lights, if you look at them like we just did. Thank you, Brandon, for the fancy camera work there. You're our Tarantino. Now, we got to flip it back to the beginning of the story. But I find that so interesting. I have another-- do you know about the Lucio light?

Garnet Dupuis: [01:26:26] Yes, I do.

Luke Storey: [01:26:27] So I have a Lucio light over there. And yesterday someone came over and we were doing some EMF testing and we were looking at the fields around all the electronics. And I put the guy under there, he lays under there and immediately he goes, "Oh my God, there's all these rainbow colors and stuff. That's so cool that you have all these colored lights," 

So me and the other guy stand there like, no, it's all white light. It's a warmer tone, halogen light in the middle and really bright white LEDs around the edges. And I just thought, God, in the same with the NeuroVizr. It's just so cool what the brain will do if you give it a little bit of stimulation.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:27:04] Okay, let's jump on an important point right there. And I'm totally in. Lucio is a beautiful device. The way it's designed, the sound is usually called music. It's not music. Music per se is too attractive to the brain. The brain will always follow a predictable pattern. It's like cat and catnip.

Luke Storey: [01:27:28] Right. That's why we get a catchy song in our head even though we don't like it.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:27:31] And it's there. So I do my best when I'm doing this style. It's like a four-piece rock band. I do the sound crafting first, and that's like the drummer and the bass player. They hold the shit together. Then I work with the light. I don't try to make the light do what the sound does. That's death in me. Boredom. So predictable. It's a yawner. So to me, the soundscape I craft like drummer and bass player, the light is like lead guitar and vocalist. 

And if you're producing and you're listening to separate tracks, the singer is definitely not trying to do what the drummer is doing. Nor is the lead guitar trying to do what the beat. But they integrate. They integrate. So two things, well, three things. I believe, at first language level, that what you want is an integration process. It has a higher level of meaning. 

It's an exponential meaning because the sound is doing something and the light, but together, famously from systems theory, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And there are plenty of devices around where, I mean, there's like 25-year-old screensavers that do this, that when the sound goes bleep, the light goes flash. So they mirror each other. The brain is like, I get it.

Luke Storey: [01:29:03] Like what you see at a concert.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:29:05] For example.

Luke Storey: [01:29:06] I just went and saw Roger Waters, a beautiful light show, video show, beautiful music. Everything's perfectly synched, you know.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:29:12] Okay. So the brain says, okay, I got it. Okay, that's interesting at first, but after a while, it's like, well, is that it? So to me, that's a low-order manipulation when you do mirroring. Then you've got suggestions and different devices where they say, "Well, just flash the light and play any music that you want." Really? Go to a Cineplex. You're sitting watching a movie and you're hearing the soundtrack of the movie next door. Dude, what do you think? Is this like scramble? It's like spaghetti on a wall.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:29:52] That's funny. But, well, let me dig into that for a second to see if I'm--

Garnet Dupuis: [01:29:58] Because this is where advancement is going and where things have been.

Luke Storey: [01:30:03] So, for example, and this kind of, actually I wanted to mention this earlier. Going back to binaural beats and their limitations and brain entrainment and things like that, I don't know if you're familiar with NuCalm. It's a neuro acoustic software. I'll send you a podcast I did with their CEO.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:30:19] I don't know.

Luke Storey: [01:30:20] It's a neuro acoustic software that you listen to that in a similar way to the tracks on your audio tracks is not really music per se.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:30:28] Technically, it's called mood framing.

Luke Storey: [01:30:31] Okay. It's totally randomized and it reliably encourages you into a really deep sort of theta state, which is really good for recovery. Like a kind of an automated guaranteed deep meditation is how I think of it. So I love it. It's 20 or 30 minutes. Any time I'm really fatigued or I just want to rest or I really want to make sure that I actually have a solid meditation, I use NuCalm. 

Now, I'll combine that with that light and even though they have nothing to do with one another, it has a really great, to me, compound effect where I'm able to disassociate from the body and kind of lose self-default mode network, goes to sleep. And then I get this enrichment from the light experience. So it's almost, I think maybe-- and they would probably be pissed if I minimize their technology to entrainment because I don't think that's quite what it is. It's a bit more dynamic.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:31:19] I don't know what it is.

Luke Storey: [01:31:20] Yeah, it's a bit more dynamic. But point being I feel like I'm kind of mixing two worlds there just based on intuition and getting positive results. But what you described of being in one theater, seeing one visual, hearing the audio from next door, there's a discordant potential there. And I've not found that, even listening to like a great, I don't know, mantra or shamanic track while I'm under that light. I seem to derive benefit and I don't seem to get any sort of chaos happening.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:31:48] Yeah, yeah. I think it is an understandable process. The brain will select. You don't realize, but the brain is definitely selecting. The brain always goes for predictability, for survival. It's inescapable unless you force it into destabilization. Right?

Luke Storey: [01:32:12] Right. Yeah.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:32:13] Just like, here we go. I mean, you do a heavy dose and it's like, strap on. Here we go. So I think that it is reliable but low in efficiency. I think, to be honest, and my best shot because I don't know that particular technology, but I understand this in principle. I've done this a lot in my life in different ways. So I think that it points towards a positive outcome. However, I think it in likelihood lacks efficiency in outcome. I think that. 

The crafting that I explained, the methodology of sensory enrichment and these things, they are quite reliable and the outcomes are with repeated, with reinforcement, they're quite impressive depending on the brain state you're starting with. So I think it works. I think that the brain is probably moving in and out of degrees of destabilization. And it's kind of randomized depending on which signal is attractive or dominant. Because if they're not integrated, it's like if you watch a badly dubbed movie, it's like it's close, but you notice it. It doesn't ring true.

So I think it's real, it's effective, but it has a lower efficiency and sustained outcome. Because what we want is state, which is short term with reinforcement to translate over into trait, which is long term. So it's not difficult to create short-term states, attractive ones or unattractive ones. How well they are integrated into the neurology, because there are four predictable stages of neuroplastic change, and I can describe them, that the integration capacity into a long-term trait. 

Listen, help right now is fantastic. You're having a hard time and you want to feel better for a while. Fantastic. Longer term, the idea is to craft these states into a building block towards sustained traits. So there are new habits, let's call them just new habits or new patterns. I'm guessing that that process generates state, but may not because it's like, what's happening? What's the trait? What is it that my brain wants to know how to do? But that's just me theorizing. 

It's attractive. There's nothing wrong with having a pleasant, positive experience. It's just what you expect from that. It's like you have a date with like, she was great, but you don't really see it going long term. There's nothing wrong with having a good time.

Luke Storey: [01:35:17] Right. Okay.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:35:20] Fair enough.

Luke Storey: [01:35:20] Yeah. But safe to say, I guess based on the fact that I'm not seeing any side effects or pathology results in me mixing these different mediums and modalities. But what we're talking about in terms of the work that appeals to you that you're doing is really marrying the sound and the light together in a cohesive way because the desired outcome is something different. It's this brain enrichment, it's the neuroplasticity. It's the trait change where over a period of time we're actually experiencing a reality-- 

Garnet Dupuis: [01:35:54] That's fair. 

Luke Storey: [01:35:55] In an uplifted.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:35:56] I would say that's a fair--

Luke Storey: [01:35:57] Whereas if I use NuCalm, and again, it might have benefits I'm unaware of, but to me, it's just a beautiful recovery tool. In 20 minutes I can get the equivalent of three or four hours sleep is what it feels like.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:36:07] Jump on it. Beautiful.

Luke Storey: [01:36:08] Which is awesome. But I don't know that it's necessarily-- I'm not in some sort of psychedelic, transcendent state either. I'm really just getting a deep rest and recovery.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:36:17] Yeah. Well, we probably won't this time get into entropic brain, but the more a person looks at either entropic brain or with Carhart, getting together with Friston, which is like two gods coming together, in my mind, they came up with a model called the anarchic brain. Anarchy, literally, anarchy means without a leader. And entropic means it goes into an entropic state of uncertainty. So they both have very unusual names. 

The anarchic brain will leave a base of order and go into disorder. It won't have a leader. And it seeks out information with open parameters, and then we'll try to select and then, hero's journey again, find something, hopefully, of importance that will assist it when it comes back and then integrates it into a higher order. It's that process. And you can tease at that process but not really enter into the information zone. 

There's potential, there's promise. But it's like the, again, I think it's the efficiency outcome. Physical exercise, the advancement in the technology, I had the chance in the past to work with a lot of athletes, gold medalists, and so on. And the understanding of how to get the most out of somebodies exercise is a-- I mean, it really is a scientific principle at this point, at that higher level. And even at the common level we understand. 

So my interest is in efficiency and maximizing because in the past when I was more into practice. I would sometimes or even oftentimes get asked a question, "What's the best kind of exercise?" I say this, "You got to do some exercise. Get off your ass." Okay, well, what's the best kind of exercise? I say, "Well, that's easy." This is not easy at all. They're all like, there's this, there's that. I said, "It's easy." They say, "Bullshit. Just tell me." I said, "The best kind of exercise is the one you're going to do."

Luke Storey: [01:38:34] Totally. That's true for me. 

Garnet Dupuis: [01:38:38] Well, true for everybody. 

Luke Storey: [01:38:40] Yeah. I mean, some people seem to really enjoy working out. I mean, I have many friends like that. They just love it. Oh, I can't wait to go to the gym. For me it's, I mean, there are few things I enjoy less than that.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:38:51] There you go. That's one of the secret sauce, dude. Yeah, the enjoyment part. So to me, it's like that, that it doesn't much matter. What you're going to do is the one that is going to give you the most benefit. All the rest is just theory. And you know what it's like, I mean, I don't know about you, probably because of your gig probably. But there's a lot of stuff in closets gathering dust.

Luke Storey: [01:39:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:39:16] There's this honeymoon effect where like, yeah, and then the honeymoon is over and it's like, eeh.

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I mean, I think I was observing this the other day because I've gone through many different practices of meditation. And I recently came back and resumed the Vedic meditation, kind of the mantra based. And Alyson and I went and got refreshed on that and started doing it. And as I started to do it over the past couple weeks, why did I ever stop? And it's like, there's not that there's anything wrong with it, I just needed novelty. 

So then I started listening to the Joe Dispenza guided meditations that in many cases were much longer and took me into these different kind of realms and things like that. But it was like the novelty, what I needed at any given time, change. There was a period where I just needed quiet and stillness for 20 minutes twice a day. And then that was not interesting to me. And I went on to other things like the NeuroVizr, something with some more bells and whistles, something that was more engaging and dynamic.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:42:03] Doing the dance.

Luke Storey: [01:42:04] Yeah. But I think a lot of it, it's just in our nature to allow ourselves to be malleable and follow what my meditation teacher, Jeff Kober, calls the charm. It's that subtle intuitive hit where you're just being drawn into a new modality or practice or a way of seeing things, you know.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:42:24] Well, let's call it adaptation to change.

Luke Storey: [01:42:26] Yeah, yeah. But I do, to your point, definitely have a closet full of old tools and toys that serve their purpose for a time or I found something new or better and they kind of fall by the wayside and end up collecting dust somewhere. I don't perceive the NeuroVizr to being in that category, though. Again, it's new to me. So I'm really into it. I'm using it pretty much, I think every day actually, especially because it's only 11 minutes.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:42:51] Well, that's part of the thing, is that--

Luke Storey: [01:42:53] I can take a break in the middle of my day with like, oh, I'm going to go meditate or making a big production out of it.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:42:59] Well, it's one of the reasons why I was so attracted to the basic neurology that I wanted a good, solid hit for an effect. I very much believe in trying to achieve the most while doing the least.

Luke Storey: [01:43:13] Yeah. You want to be both, brother. Something else to the point of this that I don't know if I mentioned when I did my little on-camera demo is that you use your own headphones. So it's just the light device that goes on your head. You use your own headphones when you listen to that track. 

And I wanted to give you a kudos for something you did really well. As someone who is an EMF awareness advocate, to say the least, meaning total tinfoil hatter, I get so annoyed when somebody comes out with a really meaningful and useful technology that exposes you to undue levels of EMF or blue light or whatever the thing they're doing wrong. 

Now, when I first got this, I thought that because you activate it with Bluetooth, I thought the whole time you were wearing it, that your brain is getting bathed in Bluetooth. And I don't like that at all, but I really liked using it. So I thought, well, cost of benefit ratio, I'm sure I'm benefiting more from this experience than I am taking a hit for 11 minutes of Bluetooth on my head. 

But then when I asked you about it, you're like, "No, the Bluetooth just pings, it turns on, then it turns off." Because I was going to ask you, "Man, you guys got to put airplane mode on this." Kind of like the Oura Ring, the Hapbee, the Apollo, really great device. I use all these great tools. They know they're going to market to biohackers and they want it to be safe and all that. So I was really happy to hear that you guys had the foresight to eliminate the EMF issue. So it's just all benefit.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:44:37] Yeah. We were just chatting a little bit. I'm a wire guy. I'm way old school that I like wires, like here's a wire and I'm happy that there's a wire. Why not? So I'm okay with that. And so upfront you need Wi-Fi, you need Bluetooth. But if you don't like Wi-Fi, you open the device, the app, you can go to the app store and the app is free. You can download the app on your phone. And you can listen to all-- you can use all the soundscapes for-- it's all there.

Luke Storey: [01:45:13] Oh, that's right.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:45:14] It's free. It's free.

Luke Storey: [01:45:15] Yeah, I didn't even realize that.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:45:16] Yeah, it's like, that's free. What does it cost? Nothing. And if you want to have the full integrated experience, then you buy the headset. That's cool. So with Wi-Fi, and you have a phone, because now the app is on your phone, if you don't want to use Wi-Fi or you want to go camping or you're in a shit zone or something, you can download all the sessions into your phone. Then you don't need Wi-Fi anymore.

Then you've got the headset and you want to connect to the headset, so the Bluetooth thing, but you select and it's a flash Bluetooth, it's like, I don't even know how many milliseconds, it's done. Now there's no more Bluetooth at all and you say go and you get the sound from your phone and you're happy to ride.

Luke Storey: [01:46:06] That's amazing. Thanks for doing that.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:46:09] Yeah. You're welcome.

Luke Storey: [01:46:09] Yeah. Some people sometimes send me different products and stuff and I'm like, it's cool, but I just-- they want me to promote it or whatever or be on the podcast. There was one, and I'm not going to shit on them, but it was some kind of HRV monitor that went around your chest and it was really compelling because it gave you real-time data about your HRV and different biometrics and such. 

But because it's in real-time, it needs Bluetooth to communicate to the app. So you're putting a Bluetooth sensor directly on your heart. And I was just like, with all due respect, it might not be that bad, but just fundamentally-- 

Garnet Dupuis: [01:46:44] It might be. 

Luke Storey: [01:46:45] It goes against just the electro nature of the human body and such, so anyway.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:46:52] I hear you.

Luke Storey: [01:46:52] I'm glad we got to cover that because I know anyone listening that's savvy to EMFs can be like, "Yeah, but what about the Bluetooth?" And to your point of using Wi-Fi to actually download the tracks, we don't even have Wi-Fi in this house. And I just use my cell signal to download the tracks when I use it. So you don't even need it actually.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:47:12] But are they permanently in your phone now?

Luke Storey: [01:47:14] No.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:47:15] If you go to--

Luke Storey: [01:47:17] So I can go on Wi-Fi if I want to download them and save, okay.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:47:21] Yeah. The little buttony thing in the top, you touch and it says, "Offline mode."

Luke Storey: [01:47:25] Got it.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:47:25] And if you click offline mode, it goes, check. Then it opens up and you have an option Download all. And you press it and you see dzzzzz. And then that's it. You own them.

Luke Storey: [01:47:39] Okay, good. While we're at it, there was something I wanted to ask you too, and I'm sure others who explore this thing will have the same question. There's a menu on the bottom underneath the play button that has breathing. What is that? Because I've pressed it, and then I'm like, "Am I missing something?"

Garnet Dupuis: [01:47:57] Yes, you're missing Wi-Fi.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:47:59] Okay, that's okay. All right. So I'm kind of waiting for something to happen. I'm like, "Is there supposed to be a guided breathwork thing on here?"

Garnet Dupuis: [01:48:06] It's really subtle. Yeah. Because you have choices. The only way we can enable right now is that through Wi-Fi you're connected to the server. I put the-- I said earlier, trying to give a credibility that the real effect neurologically begins when the light sound ends. And like the saying goes, don't eat and run, I try to encourage when it ends, I say, just feel your body. And I thought, oh screw it. 

I'm just going to put in some traditional, well-founded breathing applications. So assuming you're on Wi-Fi because it has to get from the server, you choose one. I have the typical HRV, I've got some of the anxiety, the balancer box breathing. Real classic stuff. And when the thing light and sound stops, automatically you hear a gong. Cool. But a bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. So you follow the tones and the breathing.

Luke Storey: [01:49:11] Okay. I actually heard those tones this morning after my second session. I left it on and I heard what you just described.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:49:18] Okay. Well, somehow you got into the server. Yeah, somehow. Yeah, one is they're really helpful. The other is, if you really want to max out the effect of the light sound experience, you give it some digestion time, some integration time. And the breathing not only gives you the time, like you sit your ass down and do it, but also, of course, the breathing is well known to help out autonomically to integrate neurological stimulation.

Luke Storey: [01:49:48] Cool. Cool. I like that.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:49:49] So it's good.

Luke Storey: [01:49:50] I'm all about the integration. Another thing that I find really cool about this is it's portability. Like I mentioned the Lucio light,  I love that. It's great. But I mean, you could take it all apart and put it in a little briefcase, but I never do it. I don't bring it on airplanes. The last trip I took to Colorado actually, I put this in a little case. One second to fold it, zip it up, throw it in my suitcase. Super light. It's badass for portability.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:50:17] Okay, I'm going to--

Luke Storey: [01:50:17] Which a lot of this stuff is not. And a lot of it's way more expensive. I mean, I think everything it's what? Around 1495, something like that. That Lucio light is like $8,500. The big one's 25,000 or something.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:50:28] Right. My new car is almost there.

Luke Storey: [01:50:30] Yeah. It's like who can afford that?

Garnet Dupuis: [01:50:32] Yeah. Well, okay, spoiler alert, we're working hard right now that-- well, I mean, you can show Fatboy. Then I'm going to tell you something that you don't know about Fatboy. Fatboy is nickname because-- you'll see why. It's a little bit thicker. So we make up stupid names.

Luke Storey: [01:50:57] Yeah. So for those listening, he brought the new iteration--

Garnet Dupuis: [01:51:02] So you see like that.

Luke Storey: [01:51:03] of the device.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:51:04] So you keep on learning. I mentioned to Luke how in the beginning we really tried that eco ethic. We 3D print, we do local, we hire local in Thailand. And we started off with biodegradable material and it kept on breaking. But anyway, so here's Fatboy, and what the hell? It's my company so I can do what I want. And so what we're working on right now-- we're going to work with Harman and Huemen on designs. Great design firm. Let's call this the light-- this is to my-- to my partners, trust me. It's okay. 

Let's call this the lightbox. We're working right now on a simple magnetic coupling. So you go, pow. Now you've got a lightbox. So any design that you want, you just couple it on or let's say that you have a stationary thing like over your bed or a treatment table or something, you just take it and magnetically couple it and it works no matter.

Luke Storey: [01:52:07] Right. So a practitioner could put it over someone's eyes while they're doing whatever thing.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:52:11] So nothing touches their head.  But it still works the same. It works exactly the same. And you can just uncouple and couple it-- 

Luke Storey: [01:52:20] That's so cool.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:52:20] Any way you want. Yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:52:23] I don't know if I've ever seen anything or knowingly seen anything that's 3D printed, but I like the feel of this. It looks all laser cut.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:52:32] Well, I can tell you.

Luke Storey: [01:52:34] It's cool. I think it's lit.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:52:36] We screwed up so many times. If you had seen where we started to where we are right now, it's like--

Luke Storey: [01:52:41] How many iterations before the Fatboy?

Garnet Dupuis: [01:52:45] Oh, I don't know. Fifteen. I don't even remember. A lot.

Luke Storey: [01:52:49] A lot. One thing I wanted to ask you about the-- I want to call the music tracks, but as you said, it's not really music in this traditional sense. 

Garnet Dupuis: [01:52:57] Let's call it soundscapes.

Luke Storey: [01:52:57] Soundscapes. Who's making them? You have, I don't know, a couple of dozen or something on there in the app, I think. I mean, it's like you in a music editing software thing with the didgeridoo and some rattles.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:53:12] I wish. No. There are libraries of these loops. And I have a lot of them. You can buy them. And most of them are crap. It's like some kind of evil space lord attacking antelopes. I don't know what they're trying to do, but if you spend time. And so what I mean, the process is pretty simple. And like right now, if we're going to say, hey, let's make one. What do you want to make? It's like if we were musicians or playwrights, what do you want to-- make something-- make one of, what would you like to do? What would be the theme of a new session? What would you like to make?

Luke Storey: [01:53:54] You're asking me?

Garnet Dupuis: [01:53:55] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:53:56] I would say it would be around the element of water.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:54:04] Water. Okay. That's not difficult. And what's the state that you--

Luke Storey: [01:54:08] Oh, the state. Okay. Hyper creativity.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:54:13] Hyper creativity. Okay, so the first thing you do, well, you have the backlog of knowledge about brain wave states. Let's assume you have that.

Luke Storey: [01:54:22] I have that.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:54:23] Right. And then you say, okay, the very first thing I want to do is I want to create a mood frame, an emotional tone that would complement hyper creativity. What would that sound like? What would a hyper-creative sound like? So you go through and you search around and you say, oh, that's close, but not really is, oh, fuck. Pardon me. You say, yeah, that's good. 

That's real good. And then you have like two or three others. Then you go and you say, okay, that one. That's where you start. Because this stuff has to have an emotive quality because we're not thinking creatures that feel. We're feeling creatures that think. And that's really important in terms of communicating.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:55:16] Can you say that again?

Garnet Dupuis: [01:55:17] Yeah, we are not-- I'll try. We are not thinking creatures that feel. We are feeling creatures that think. That's the whole thing of bottom up as opposed to top down. Most neuroplasticity techniques come top down. They are more conceptual. The bottom up, which is where I play, is more perceptual, more perception than cognition. So that's first language that plays.

Luke Storey: [01:55:51] Got it. That's really interesting. And that brings to mind principles of manifestation or laws of attraction, wherein just thinking about it, that would be top down. Intellectualizing all the ways it could work, won't work, should work, you know.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:56:06] Yeah. Yeah.

Luke Storey: [01:56:08] Rumination does nothing. Maybe if there's a little intention behind it, you might get somewhere. But where the magic is or the secret sauce, as you would call it on item four earlier--

Garnet Dupuis: [01:56:20] And five.

Luke Storey: [01:56:21] Yeah. Five, and the other one, is the feeling that what that thing that we desire would invoke. And invigorating ourselves with the feeling almost prior to the cognition of how to do it, when, where, how, who, all that.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:56:35] Yeah. This bottom up is what entropic brain and all, they talk about that as being primary consciousness. Primary consciousness, this is Aldous Huxley and Emberson and all these guys, where the brain is a reducing valve organism. That it begins-- that the proto, the early consciousness was uncertain and wild with all sorts of sensory perceptual load and is like, wow, it's kind of a tripping world. And then bit by bit a secondary element comes in that starts to control and suppress that to make it more practical.
So entropic brain, there's primary consciousness, secondary consciousness, and there's this zone in between called criticality. So this up and down and you can get into primary consciousness super fast, bottom up. Perceptual instead of top down conceptual. Like guided imagery where somebody's talking and you're walking along and they're saying all kinds of nice things and good, that's a cognitive top-down process. And it'll have a bunch of that too. Why not? However, the potency of a bottom-up perceptual, not conceptual, perceptual where it doesn't have a meaning. It is its own meaning. You understand? Top down has a meaning.

Luke Storey: [01:58:13] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:58:14] What do you mean by that? What is the meaning of blue? I show you blue and you say, "Well, what does that mean?" It's blueness. Just experience it. Like Stanislas Graff. The only way to have an experience is to experience the experience.

Luke Storey: [01:58:32] What you're describing also brings to mind perhaps, why religious conversion experiences or transcendent experiences can be so profoundly life changing without necessarily much cognition involved at all. It's a being state of experience, and it can turn an ardent atheist into a religious scholar. You know what I mean?

Garnet Dupuis: [01:58:59] Yeah. I called this stuff knowing without thinking.

Luke Storey: [01:59:01] Right. Okay, that's good.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:59:03] It's knowing without-- it's like, I got it. But I can't explain it.

Luke Storey: [01:59:08] I had an experience a couple of years ago with the Bufo Toad, the 5-MeO-DMT.

Garnet Dupuis: [01:59:13] That'll experience it.

Luke Storey: [01:59:14] And I've been studying loosely non-duality in Eastern mysticism, and it's benefited my life a lot from just trying to create a meaning and a framework where everything makes sense. That there's this omniscient force of creation that we call God, and it manifests itself in all spectrums of known reality so that it can experience itself. I mean, it's this kind of fundamental things that are understood from a certain worldview. 

And I can intellectually understand that, but I had an experience specifically where I experienced that. And that was infinitely more life changing and potent than me reading a 1,000 books that explained it intellectually, no matter how thorough and eloquent they might have been. It's like seeing, feeling, being, experiencing why creation exerts the effort to experience itself in infinite ways. 

Including all the ways that we would perceive on one spectrum of duality to be bad, evil, wrong, dark, abhorrent. It's like, no, it all has to be here in order for this thing to work. And so having the richness of that experience of feeling that in my bones changed the trajectory of my life, forever.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:00:28] Well, that's the beauty to me of direct bottom-up sensory. And it's just like, boom, and there it is.

Luke Storey: [02:00:38] And there's no way of unknowing it.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:00:40] No, it's like it happened.

Luke Storey: [02:00:41] Or unbelieving it.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:00:42] Well, because you couldn't believe it into existence and you can't believe it out of existence. 

Luke Storey: [02:00:47] Right. It's kind of like there's this great reality that exists and it's going to exist whether or not we have access to it or not. And once we get access, it's not like something has to be gained. It's just you're acknowledging something that was already in existence.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:01:06] Well, I think that this is the thing, that our brain, not even, whatever the mind is or soul or spirit or whatever, our actual organ, the brain is built to be able to let go and access this for periods of time. It's built for it. Again, I'll repeat something from the beginning, because the state is uncommon does not make it abnormal. 

But we're in such a rationalist, materialistic, scientific philosophy that there is an innate resistance or fear in the irrational. It's got to be rational. Well, welcome to the hero's journey, my friend. Here's the thing. Ordinary experience, then you feel more, it's like I got to change. And then you resist it. I mean, this is classic hero's journey. You can read, Campbell, all of it. 

And then say, ordinary, got to change. I don't want to change. Then some influence, a mentor or something kicks you over the line and you go into the underworld, you go into the entropic brain, into that primary consciousness. And then you experience challenges and trials and allies and enemies and discoveries and something important. And then you value it and then you take it into yourself. Then you come back home again with what you had. Now you got it. And now you give it to others. Hero's journey, dead on.

Luke Storey: [02:02:38] Wow. I want to let people know, that are listening, that are like, "I want to check out this NeuroVizr thing." You can get 100 bucks off this bad boy, and I highly recommend it for those that can afford it. Even with 100 bucks off, it's a considerable investment for some people. I think personally, worth it. You can go to neurovizr.com. That's N-E-U-R-O-V-I-Z-R, neurovizr.com. And your code there, that you guys so generously offered, and thank you for that, is LUKE100. So I wanted to make sure to get that in during the conversation. So I listen to podcast and like, yeah, yeah, where's that thing? I want the thing. So there you go for those interested. 

Garnet Dupuis: [02:03:14] We should have started off with that.

Luke Storey: [02:03:16] Yeah. Right. Big sales pitch. Sunday, Sunday. Big sale. Today only. I was wondering, when you talked about the future version of this, where you're going to have the magnetic piece, you can take it off.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:03:28] That's our intent. We're working on it now because there's always weird, dumb stuff.

Luke Storey: [02:03:33] Well, what that-- I mean, personally, I don't think you need to do it. It'd be cool for some people, but it works just fine the way it is. But what I was wondering is, have you been able to do any research in terms of the brain waves and the different states and stuff? And the reason I thought of the magnet thing, I thought, oh, I don't know if they could do a QEG with this thing on your head because of all the wires and sensors and all that. Have you guys done any?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:03:57] Beginning.

Luke Storey: [02:03:58] You're starting to do that?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:04:01] Here's Kookie, the dog.

Luke Storey: [02:04:02] Yeah. He comes up.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:04:04] That's good. Two things.  We are in the midst right now of, well, a couple of specific studies using the device and planning a few. However, I have to say that essentially everything-- let's be conservative and say 90% of everything that is there is based on solid preexisting research. So I'm not blowing this stuff out of different orifices and [Inaudible] let's try this for a while. 

That's why I'm able to describe enrichment and priming processes and neuroplasticity and the periods of time because the research is there. If anybody is motivated and you can get through the language in some of it, I mean, for me, it's like a page-turner fascination. I love it. That it exists. And some of it is only brand new hot off the press. Some research on the network harmonics of the brain networks. When I saw that as was like, "Oh, are you kidding me?" Here it is. And so I programmed sessions to reinforce the limbic network and the executive control and default mode network. It's like, well, I mean, it is like a candy store. Here's all of the information. Well, okay, let me use it, program it.

Luke Storey: [02:05:27] Awesome. And with the element of light, I've heard this type of light therapy, I guess, for lack of a better term, be called hypnagogic light. Would what you're doing be classified as that to you?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:05:42] Sort of. Hypnagogic.

Luke Storey: [02:05:43] Hypnagogic. Okay

Garnet Dupuis: [02:05:44] Yeah. And hypnopompic.

Luke Storey: [02:05:46] Like logic.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:05:46] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [02:05:47] Okay. Got it.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:05:48] Gogic. That's funny. Okay. I have tradition training and Tibetan or Vajrayana Buddhism and so on and so on. And they call this the fourth state. Break it down. We have two basic states. You're awake or you're asleep. In the sleep state, you have this thing called sleeping dreams. In the waking, you have this thing called waking dreams. That's the fourth state. We basically have forgotten about this fourth state. 

It is fundamentally required for an organism to experience this state every circadian cycle. It's a psychic nutrient. And it naturally occurs in the transition from waking to sleep. That's the hypnagogic. And from sleeping to wake, that's the hypnopompic. But that's not restricted there. That just happens even though most of us have no idea. We don't pay attention to it. Many, many people have been aware of its creative potential. 

It's crazy. I mean, there are a lot of famous ones like Edison, who used to hold ball bearings in his hand and zone or whatever you want to call it. And then when they would fall, he would-- so he was trying to teach himself to be in that state. And Dolly used to use keys and on and on. So this thing called hypnagogic, or hypnopompic, let's just say hypnagogic, when you go from wake to sleep is evidence of a normative aspect of the brain and that you can learn how to do that during any part of your waking state. 

The trick is, whilst in that transition time, the trick is the access point is deep conscious relaxation. Most of us don't have that ability. When we begin to relax more deeply, we lose consciousness. So this is something-- the big thief in my mind, electricity is the big thief. Because throughout many of our human existence, we've spent great amounts of time awake in the dark.

Luke Storey: [02:08:19] Oh, interesting.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:08:20] We don't spend time awake in the dark.

Luke Storey: [02:08:24] That's interesting. Because I always think of peoples of antiquity as having a fire. Maybe they're staying up till 9 PM, then everyone goes to sleep and wakes up with the sun like. I pictured them like humans just following the sun cycle. It's like the solar cycle, essentially.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:08:39] But even before the like, I'm going to sleep now, there are periods of extended darkness and you've heard of the prisoner's cinema?

Luke Storey: [02:08:51] No. 

Garnet Dupuis: [02:08:51] Okay. This is from-- there are many versions of this. But when people would put in dungeons and you're there and you're awake for long and there's little or no light, much of the time, either eyes open or closed, they would see all of this displayed like the NeuroVizr. And so they would wait. And that was their entertainment. First, there are first scenes like little. And then you go into the entopic. 

The entopic is like, these are colors I've never seen before. Then you get the geometry and all the dimensionality. Then if you hang there long enough, then it's the open sesame. You get eidetic where you start to see places and people and scenes and the whole thing. So the sensory deprivation is one of the ways to access primary consciousness, the psychedelic zone. 

And it was, I mean, famous so much so that it has this name, the prisoner's cinema. That they would just wait, they would be awake in the dark and the brain starts to populate itself with all of these redundant feedback cycles and all these things start to happen. And there you are.

Luke Storey: [02:10:10] Wow. This must be, I guess, the same phenomenon as these darkness retreats. My friend and fellow Austinite Aubrey Marcus was telling me about one of these. I think he made a documentary about it, I don't know if it's come out yet. But he said that-- I don't know if this is what he perceived to be happening or what's happening, but he said it was like a DMT trip. Essentially, after a couple of days, you're tripping balls.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:10:34] Well, this is the point, that our brain has the capacity to do this and it's not a malfunction. DMT may be involved or not involved. The brain is neurologically capable of letting go of restricted network relationships for periods of time normally, naturally, and positively. So the hypnagogic, to me, it's a reference, but it's a restrictive reference because the thought is, well, that's that transition time. 

No. It works because you begin to move into deep relaxation, but you're still semi-conscious. Well, you can learn to be fully conscious. So you can have your sleeping dreams and your waking dreams. When these waking dreams start to become more lucid-- what does lucid mean? It has two meanings. Full of light, but it also means clear perception. Like if you're in the hospital, they want to check, is he lucid? Do you know your name? Do you know the time-- what day it is? 

sometimes I don't know what day it is, so I don't know if have I got a problem. But like, are you lucid? So when you start to have lucid waking dreams, if you can drop into deep conscious relaxation, that is not the goal, but that's the gateway. That's the gateway. And if you can pass through that gate, what's on the other side of that is all the stuff you want. That's where it lives.

Luke Storey: [02:12:07] That's the juice.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:12:08] That's the juice. So when you start to have the ability for lucid waking dreams, guess what happens to your sleeping dreams? They start to become lucid. The lucidity, the clear perception that I am having this experience is a normative, skillful process that you can develop in the brain. Hence the dream yogas and all these things that are in the traditions that I practiced throughout my life. It's like, oh, there it is. 

Basically not even aware, in a common sense, and the other were not encouraged as kids. Kids can do this, but we don't encourage it and they unlearn to do it. It's normal. Call it fantasize and call it drop in and you can see. People sometimes ask me, how do you know what to do with-- how do you know how to make these things? I call it light choreography. Well, one is I studied my ass off, but the other is the truth. We all want the truth, don't we? The truth is, many of the kind of, what are called, insights that I get on how to do it come while I'm doing it.

Luke Storey: [02:13:28] All right. Right. I just had an idea.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:13:33] What's that?

Luke Storey: [02:13:33] We need to make a waterproof NeuroVizr so you can take it in a float tank.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:13:38] I'll put that on my to-do list.

Luke Storey: [02:13:42] I mean, seriously I'm not. But I was thinking about-- just thinking about the darkness retreats and these different stages that you go through, those access points to deeper levels of consciousness. And when you were talking, I was like, oh, I've experienced that in float tanks.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:13:59] Sure. Deprivation.

Luke Storey: [02:14:00] Yeah, sensory deprivation, 20 minutes, 30 minutes into it, all of a sudden you got no body anymore.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:14:06] DHL or FedEx? 

Luke Storey: [02:14:08] Yeah, yeah. Right, right.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:14:09] Right? 

Luke Storey: [02:14:10] Right.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:14:10] Okay, here's the thing that's important. I'll bring up because we're talking about these things, and also, Lucio, a gorgeous device. This design is complex and it may not seem it, but there are so many optometric parameters built into this that won't happen if you have like sunglass goggles or won't happen with Lucio or any other kind of similar distance device. When this thing is flickering, it's not product pitch. This is important stuff. This is advancement right now in the technology, that there are three levels of optometric signaling going on simultaneously. Macro, meso, and micro.

Luke Storey: [02:14:54] Really?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:14:54] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [02:14:55] Within the lights.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:14:56] Within this design with the lights. So that the distance this is from the retina, the height-- what's the bottom? The bottom of the light and the left and the right, peripheral, are within the visual field with rotating eyes. Because you know the whole thing, like when somebody is looking up or looking down, I can control-- control's too strong, I can strongly influence the general neurological autonomic state just by where the lights are. Forget about the flickering thing. Just what lights are turning on where. 

In standard meditation, well, most traditions, if you're sitting, you're not doing a Vedic mantra. If The mind starts to become overactive, the guidance is, roll your eyes down. Look down. And that'll come the overactivity cognitively. You start to get dopey and doze off, even with your eyes closed roll your eyes up. And that triggers stimulation. So I can have the lights moving up or moving down in cascades depending on what state I'm seeking.

Also, and this is some of the secrets, I won't say, Morgan, these are my secrets. But the direction of rotation, because sometimes you'll see the lights sort of doing-- they're not just-- they're moving around. That directionality and dynamics also is a strong influence on nervous system. And even in EMDR techniques, eye desensi-- that thing, I do that with the lights purposely, is a destabilization that desensitizes the amygdala. That's all built into here.

Luke Storey: [02:16:52] That's crazy.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:16:54] And there's like, that's 20%.

Luke Storey: [02:16:56] That's so cool.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:16:57] So that's the macro signaling. Even if the lights weren't flickering, it would work.

Luke Storey: [02:17:03] Really?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:17:03] Yes.

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Well, there's an interesting effect. I'm glad we started talking about the lights because I wanted to ask you about this. There's a very novel effect that I get when I'm using the NeuroVizr. If I pay attention to it and just I'm really present to my experience. There's this percolating sensation in my, I don't know, in my frontal lobe or forehead where it's like you can just feel it firing to the point where I haven't had anyone look at it-- 

But I feel like you would see the skin moving on the outside of my skull. That's how pronounced it is. It's like a twitching going on in the brain. And to the point of that, the enjoyment, I really like how it feels. So as I start to notice it, I almost, and I'm not forcing that at all, but I'm putting a little attention on it and just maybe gently encouraging that to do what it's doing. And I feel like there's some sort of hemispheric synchronization that some parts of my brain are lighting up that are physically--

Garnet Dupuis: [02:19:42] Yes, it is.

Luke Storey: [02:19:43] Discernable.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:19:44] And the more you do it, the more your brain knows how to dance to these things. It gets better and better and better and better.

Luke Storey: [02:19:54] Do you think that there is any kind of hemispheric synchronization going on?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:19:59] I don't know. I don't pursue it. So I don't know. The honest answer is don't know. I'm going to finish this on the quickie because I'm proud of it. And also, it's a big difference. And when you ask about comparison of different devices, I don't say anybody's device is bad. Everybody's device does what it does. End of story. I described the macro. There's also meso pulsing. 

Because the understanding more and more is that all of the frequency elements of the brain are in resonant relationships with the pulsing in the body, like breathing rates, heart rates, peristaltic rates, blood pressure, cranial sacral that you can't have this cacophony of frequencies that they want to exist in different harmonic relationships. 

So I have meso pulsing that is more somatic. These are the pulse rates that you dance to. You can't dance to 20 hertz. Twenty times a second, you can't move that fast unless you're on meth. So in here, there are times I'll insert-- while the macro is happening, I'll insert pulsing. That pulsing works so that the experience starts to resonate whole body and not just cranial.

Then there's the micro flickering and that flickering, there are so many things going on there that a particular frequency, 18 hertz, 12 hertz, it's like a musician talking about a note. Is context. Dog. Cat. Bites. Dog bites cat. Cat bites dog. Same three words, two different meanings. So the sequencing, the rate of change. 

Then there's this thing called latency, where I can change this at an absolute rate, but the brain cannot process at an absolute rate. There's a latency. So whatever signal happens here, depending on how quickly I move it, that signal bleeds into the next signal, bleeds into the next signal. And what you have is you have a novel signal emerge that is neither one nor the other. It's the product. It's the baby of these two. And it goes on and on and on. 

Part of it is like a screenplay. If you write a screenplay for a movie and you want to bring up more of that character's qualities, what's the conventional tool in screenwriting? It's super easy. You create some kind of conflict. When that character experiences a conflict, you--

Garnet Dupuis: [02:22:48] And when you start dating someone and you're in the honeymoon phase and you think you know who they are, it's always a conflict and probably them of you as, to be fair.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:22:56] Go traveling. Check it out. So anyway, I purposely introduce conflict destabilization at certain times because of the way that the brain will want to come back, because the brain wants to recognize it, wants to know. So I say, "Whoa, whoa." And say, "What? What about this?" Oh, it kind of creates an appetite for the signal. 

So just going back, not critically, but brain entrainment has none of this. None. And this is a domain of exploration that is, to me, it is in the best of senses, psychedelic. It is mind-manifesting experience. And you've got to exercise. Say sometimes that the Vizr is brain exercise disguised as entertainment. Kind of like Zumba for the brain.

Luke Storey: [02:24:00] That's really well said, actually, because as you were explaining that, how you kind of embed the sense of novelty in there, I was thinking about, I just actually really enjoy my sessions with this. I mean, I always know where this is in the house, which is usually in my office because that's where I spend most of my time in the daytime. 

But yeah, it's not like-- even with meditation, which I love the benefits of it, but I don't know that I'm ever really excited to stop what I'm doing at 4:00 in the afternoon and shut everything down, especially when there's some inertia at play. It's like, ah, I got to meditate. Yet I've never ended a meditation and be like, that was a waste of time. I shouldn't have done that. Literally. Never.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:24:39] Yeah, yeah.

Luke Storey: [02:24:40] But I'm not drawn to it in the same way where you're like, it's a juicy reward. Oh, there's a piece of candy I know in the cupboard I'm going to go eat it. And then I do, and I know where it is. That's what my experience of your tech has been. It's just like, "Well, where's that thing? I'm kind of craving that experience." But of course, it's the brain craving that experience. And maybe it's more so because there are some novel elements with that latency and those parts baked in that keeps your brain out of that totally predictable pattern.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:25:09] Yeah. In free energy principle and all these elegant brain theories right now, Anil Seth in his book leans heavily on it as a materialist. The theory really simply is that the brain is very good at prediction. That it wants shortcuts. That when I walk through my yard up in the mountains, I look down and I see a snake. I look again and it's a garden hose. That the brain builds these things called priors. And literally, at least at a neurological level, our brain is always jumping to conclusions.

Luke Storey: [02:25:53] Got that right.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:25:54] It always jumps to a conclusion. Why? Because there's too much energy demand to have every experience be totally virgin. So in this theory, they say that the brain will do everything it can to reduce surprise. When you walk down the stairway, you don't want to be surprised that your stairway turned into a boa constrictor. That would be a surprise, which, of course, can happen in a certain brain state. 

I mean, famously Woodstock, when Carlos Santana is playing. Do you know that story?

Luke Storey: [02:26:28] Huh-huh. 

Garnet Dupuis: [02:26:28] Yeah. If you know the Woodstock you know some of the stuff that Santana was scheduled to go on later. But then it got kicked up. But before the schedule got changed, Hendrix gave Carlos a very heavy hit of mescaline. So he went on stage and he was peaking when he was playing the set. And that while he's peaking, his guitar is turning into a boa constrictor and he's playing this snake through, probably the most famous Santana song of all from Woodstock, so anyway. 

That the brain supposedly for survival, does its best to minimize surprise. And yet, this is my challenge to their theory, we delight in certain qualities of surprise, of novelty, humor, and just the, wow, look at that art or looking into the baby's eyes and you go, poooh. So I think the brain for Darwinian survival seeks to avoid surprise by being predictive. But when it comes right down to it, we just have to let loose and discover and delight in the uncommon in order to not be insane.

Luke Storey: [02:27:54] Well, that brings me to my last question. And that was in regard to fourth state deficiency syndrome.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:28:01] Yeah. Yeah.

Luke Storey: [02:28:01] I mean, that's a perfect segue. Thank you, sir.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:28:04] Yeah. Well, that's another-- I think that many, many, many of the conditions that we suffer are because we lack time spent in the lucid waking dream or whatever you want to call it, the fourth state. I think that we fundamentally have a fourth-state deficiency. A person is a vegan and they are not doing any B12 supplementation and they feel like shit no matter what therapy they do or what and it's like, ugh. They take the B12, it's like, "Oh, I feel better." 

So I think that because it's biologically imprinted in our circadian cycle, if you don't let a person wake up, they're going to have a problem. If you don't let a person sleep, they've got a problem. If you don't let a person dream, they've got a problem. But if you don't let-- if a person doesn't have this-- so these are just words. The waking dreams, they're not even what you mean by dream. But that thing that is on the other side of deep conscious relaxation, where you can stay consciously awake and be deeply relaxed, especially in the dark. 

If you don't spend time there, you're going to experience a syndrome that I call forth state deficiency syndrome. And one of the very first manifestations or symptoms of this syndrome is disturbed sleep because you have a disturbed circadian cycle. A very fundamental element of information processing is not happening. You have the rational mind, you've got some sleeping dreams, but you don't have this revelry of creative information-rich exploration that is psychically a nutrient. It's a nutrient.

Luke Storey: [02:30:07] So true.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:30:08] I got to say, to finish the thought up, that one of the most common feedbacks that I get, and this is no matter what sessions they're using. One of the most common feedbacks I get is normalizing sleep.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:30:22] Really?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:30:23] Yes. With regular use, people that don't sleep or like a PTSD, that kind of thing, or just the insomnia, they say, "Thank you. I haven't slept since medical school like I'm sleeping now." And I think--

Luke Storey: [02:30:38] Even if it just did that, you would win.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:30:41] It's not a bad thing, right? 

Luke Storey: [02:30:43] Yeah.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:30:43] And so I think, and I'm not making it up, I'm kind of-- well, maybe I am making it up, but I think that this fourth state deficiency syndrome is, to use the word, is epidemic or pandemic in urban societies. And however you're able to get close to that and taste that, the circadian cycle itself, which is fundamental to health and wellbeing, starts to-- it's like, if you don't get enough sleep, I don't care what therapies you're doing, they're not going to work well.

Luke Storey: [02:31:16] 100%. 

Garnet Dupuis: [02:31:17] Right?

Luke Storey: [02:31:17] Yeah. Especially as you get older, I've found.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:31:20] Well, and you will find increasingly my prediction. Yeah, I know. So my thought is, well, I think we have a deficiency syndrome.

Luke Storey: [02:31:32] Yeah. I mean, if you look at ancient cultures, indigenous cultures, and probably even the very few that persist as kind of hunter-gatherer life way folks out there in the depths of the Amazon or wherever they might still be allowed to exist. But the ritual, the ceremony, dance, fire, antigenic substances, God knows what, breathing techniques, all the rituals, all the things, all the different cultures seem to all share in that they value that state, as you put it, as a nutrient. It's a coming of age. It's a rite of passage. All of these artifacts of these various cultures are centered around that. 

And you're so right that in our-- and I have no problem with capitalism and it seems to be the best we've come up with. I'm sure we could do better. But let's just say Western capitalist society, get to the front of the line, get an education, make a bunch of money and die with a bunch of toys, that kind of thing. No rest for the wicked, sleep is for when you're dead. This kind of mentality, the competitive nature of our culture doesn't place any value on what you're speaking to.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:32:41] No. You're nuts if you go there. We used to praise them. They were the seers, the prophets, the shamans. And now it's like, he's schizophrenic.

Luke Storey: [02:32:51] Well, this is also in our culture too something that I think is a huge problem, especially in relation to cultures that have been at least socially and psychologically successful in the past, is that we totally denigrate the elderly. There's really no place for elder wisdom here. Elderly people are, generally speaking, and there are exceptions, shoved away in nursing homes and they're a bother to us rather than the richness of their experience. 

And even myself when I was younger, I mean, I didn't have much interest in my grandparents' points of view. I want to go listen to Zeppelin and ride my skateboard. I don't want to hear about your philosophy. Now, as I'm getting a little older I talk to a guy like you that's 20-something years older than me, and I'm like, "Man, give me that wisdom." 

I would rather talk to you with somewhat life experience and earned wisdom than I would, no offense, your average 20-year-old that thinks they have life figured out and knows relatively little about what the game is all about. So I think you're so right that we're missing that nutrient and then the carriers of that wisdom and the beneficiaries of that nutrient that have practiced it perhaps more than us are just kind of shoved away and ignored.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:34:03] I feel like I'm a 22-year old, 73-year old.

Luke Storey: [02:34:06] Yeah, I think that's a pretty accurate assessment.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:34:09] Okay, two things. Original mind machine. Well, let's call this a mind machine, because we would call them that in the '70s and the '80s. The original mind machine was fire because with normal fuel, the average fire, even the campfire or the fireplace, it flickers in and around the 10 hertz rate. It's the original alpha stabilizer.

Luke Storey: [02:34:30] Really?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:34:31] Yeah. Flickering fire. Fire flickers. Hello. And what was the light that we had the only time in the dark caves in the periods and what would you stare? And then you look into it and then you could use like a crystal ball where if you can pass that critical zone and go into primary consciousness, then you start to see visions and forecasts and everything. So the fire was the first mind machine. 

Second thing is a caution or a warning or something that's freaking me out. I'm not quite sure how to deal with it, but I'll call it the consumerism of consciousness where awareness just becomes a product. And that's why I would say, our biz, what you do and what I do, I think we have to be really sensitively aware that we don't turn all of this into just another consumer-tilted product that we're trying to sell.

Luke Storey: [02:35:32] Right. I mean, that's the trick when I think about the psychedelic industry or at least what's emerging as an industry. Such a positive thing, but also a double-edged sword when finding God becomes a commodity that can be monetized, then it gets kind of sticky.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:35:50] So let's make an agreement to be cautious.

Luke Storey: [02:35:53] Yeah, for sure.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:35:55] Thank you very much, man.

Luke Storey: [02:35:56] Absolutely. I thought I was done with questions, but you made me think of one when you talked about sleep--

Garnet Dupuis: [02:36:01] Yeah.

Luke Storey: [02:36:03] There's a track in your app for sleep, or maybe it's even a category.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:36:08] It's a category.

Luke Storey: [02:36:09] Yeah. And then there's a few tracks within that. And me as someone who's not only really into the EMF stuff, but blue light, I'm like, this thing makes blue light, it's flickering and flashing and even though your eyes are closed, I thought, oh man, if I do this, it's going to shut down my melatonin production and actually activate me and make me alert. But of course, I'm a beta tester. I tried it and it had no negative impact on sleep whatsoever and I think even did help me fall asleep on a couple of occasions.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:36:35] I use it for jetlag. I wake up in the middle of the night and I do a session and [Inaudible]. There are two that are specific, although many of them are useful. The one called Sleep Angel is more of a sleep training.

Luke Storey: [02:36:54] I did that one last night.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:36:56] It's a sleep training. And it could have been called, because I make up the names, it could have been called learning how to let go. Because many people don't have the sleep in a positive way because all day they're building up a tension and a charge. And they're just supposed to say, okay, now I'm going to let go of everything. They can't let go of everything. So the idea is sleep training where you can do it during the day and you'll find that sleep comes more easily. 

Deep Sleep is more of a sleep induction and I'll take a risk because it's not really true. It's more like a sleeping pill. So it's more induces it more-- kind of makes your brain want to shift where Sleep Angel lets you learn how to let go. And the two relate to each other very nicely in that way.

Luke Storey: [02:37:50] Cool. Yeah. I just found it fascinating that me having a blue light on my face didn't keep me awake. It's weird.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:37:59] No, it doesn't.

Luke Storey: [02:38:00] Because if I'm on my computer or my phone or something with a bunch of blue light, I mean, now that my eyes are open--

Garnet Dupuis: [02:38:04] Well, okay, that's a big deal.

Luke Storey: [02:38:05] It will definitely make me more alert.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:38:07] That's a big deal.

Luke Storey: [02:38:08] There'll be more cortisol than melatonin.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:38:09] Yeah. But in this case, one, your eyelids are there, your eyes are closed, and the other is, like we talked about the Bluetooth thing earlier. Actually the incoming messaging overrides in most every case, any amount of light stimulation that might be triggered. So I can't say that there's zero, but the other process overrides that most typically in most people. 

Luke Storey: [02:38:37] That makes sense. It's much different putting this on than walking into a bathroom and turning on a big bright LED light, right?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:38:44] The halogen headlight.

Luke Storey: [02:38:45] Yeah, where it's immediately stimulating.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:38:47] Yeah, I know. It's a different animal.

Luke Storey: [02:38:49] Another thing interesting with the flickering light that you have, I mean, in my world and things we talk about in terms of just interior ambient lighting is you want to avoid flicker. If you have fluorescent bulbs, LED bulbs, they flicker at 60 hertz. It's really agitating to you subconsciously and so on. So I'm always testing the flicker with slow motion videos and there's--

Garnet Dupuis: [02:39:08] Take a pencil. It's like trails and you're tripping, right?

Luke Storey: [02:39:13] Totally. There's no flickering lights in this house for a purpose. But I was thinking as you were talking about the lights, the reason that this is not agitating is obviously because the frequency is very intentional and varies. It isn't just stuck at 60 hertz, right?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:39:28] No. It's, I think, shortcut through a longer thing. Shortcut. If you want to know what the brain loves to do and loves to experience, check up music. Because music is made by the brain for the brain. You don't have to be smart to enjoy music. You don't have to have a particular set of ideas. It's first language level. And that without lyrics, without anything, you can experience-- it's just pitches and tones. And you can feel sad, you can feel happy, you can feel courageous from the music. 

We've been able to work with mechanical vibration as humans for a long, long time. The first one, of course, is voice, then hitting things, percussion and then so on and so on. We've been able to make material vibrate in a way that we can express the brain's language to itself. We've had sunlight, moonlight, firelight. We haven't had the tool to technology to do with light what we've done with sound. Right now, we're right on the cusp of finally having instruments that will finally let you see the music you love.

Luke Storey: [02:40:50] Hot damn.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:40:51] Hot damn.

Luke Storey: [02:40:52] That's cool, man.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:40:53] It is cool.

Luke Storey: [02:40:54] Who have been three teachers that have influenced your life that you might share with us?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:41:01] My mother, my Tibetan Dzogchen teacher who's passed away, and Oscar, one of the apes that I've rehabbed and taken care of.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:41:16] What's Oscar like?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:41:17] Oscar is amazing, man. He's a gibbon of Southeast Asian ape. He was nearly dead from electrocution because in the forest there are too many high-tension wires. They think they're a vine. So he almost died. And so he was--

Luke Storey: [02:41:32] Oh, man. God, that's so sad.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:41:33] Paralyzed. They wanted to cut-- and so I took-- I have up in the mountains, so I had a sanctuary and I had them actually a number of them living in the house with me. Very tolerant wife. And so it goes on and on and on. And anyway, so it took two and a half years, six days out of seven that I had to unbandage, bandage his hand, abscess wounds, infections, finger amputations. But bit by bit the arm started to come back. And more and more and more.

 And we've domesticated certain animals to be the way that we want them to be. And then there are these things called wild animals. They're not wild. They're not wild at all. They're the most civilized, predictable, ordered beings. We're the wild ones. We're the fucking crazy ones. We're the most dangerous animal on the planet. So especially with primates, I'll make this short. It's deeply meaningful to me. 

When in the wild, you don't do eye contact directly. It's very dangerous. It's very aggressive. It's confrontational. So you don't do that. But when there's a lot of suffering and even death and all these things, as I've been and I mean, I'm putting my head down because it's super private stuff. But when they decide to open themselves to you face to face and go eye to eye and let themselves know you and let you know them, inexpressible. Inexpressible. It's like, oh, I'm so fucking arrogant, I apologize. And I really apologize. So Oscar.

Luke Storey: [02:43:36] I'm glad I asked you to elaborate. It's a powerful note to end on.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:43:40] Yeah. You don't know what you've forgotten until you remember it. And we've forgotten a lot. A lot.

Luke Storey: [02:43:53] Well, thank you for helping us remember today, my friend.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:43:55] It's a pleasure to be here, Luke.

Luke Storey: [02:43:56] Thank you. I'm so grateful you came to spend some time with us.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:43:59] Yeah, yeah. You're welcome. I know Thailand is just a jump away. You get this--

Luke Storey: [02:44:04] I love Thailand.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:44:05] You get this thing called an airplane. It's amazing.

Luke Storey: [02:44:07] They terrify me. I mean, not the flying. I'm not afraid of flying. It's just the experience of travel as a whole. But I love Thailand, man. Such cool people. They're such great people and obviously this beautiful terrain.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:44:23] COVID blew things up. But to finish up, in the tourist industry, you may know there's this thing called return rate that if you leave your country, like Germany, and you go to Argentina, then you go back to Germany, what are the odds you're going to leave Germany and go back to Argentina again? That's the return rate. And of all the countries in the world, Thailand has the highest return rate of any country.

Luke Storey: [02:44:46] Really?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:44:47] Yeah. If you go there one time, statistically, the odds are, absolutely, if you leave your country, you'll go back to Thailand again.

Luke Storey: [02:44:56] That is wild.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:44:57] Not that you won't go to other countries, but that you will keep on going back to Thailand.

Luke Storey: [02:45:03] Wow. I need to take part in that then, because I went and only went once.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:45:07] You go South or North?

Luke Storey: [02:45:09] South.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:45:09] Yeah. That's where you party boy island stay in. But the grown-ups are in the North.

Luke Storey: [02:45:15] Yeah. Is that the case?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:45:17] That's the case, man. I think Chiang Mai, the city where I live, essentially, I think it has every possibility of being the next San Francisco.

Luke Storey: [02:45:26] Really?

Garnet Dupuis: [02:45:26] Meaning what happened in San Francisco, late '60s, early '70s, creativity, unusual thinking, liberal arts, the scientists that-- the hippies that say physics. And I think Chiang Mai, I think, is shifting East, number one. And I think Chiang Mai has all of the ingredients to be the next San Francisco.

Luke Storey: [02:45:49] Noted. We're going to keep our finger on the pulse of that. And thanks for reminding me how awesome Thailand is. I got to set the intention to get back over there.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:45:55] Okay. Intention is what? What comes before intention?

Luke Storey: [02:46:01] Desire. 

Garnet Dupuis: [02:46:02] Motivation. Why?

Luke Storey: [02:46:03] Why? I don't know. 

Garnet Dupuis: [02:46:06] That's the thing. If you have an intention, look at what is motivating that intention. Want to go back to Thailand is your intention. The question is, why do you want to go back? That is going to drive insight into your intent. Why would you want to go back to Thailand?

Luke Storey: [02:46:23] To be in the jungle, and to experience people that are from where they're from, living successfully and happily.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:46:30] And what would that do for you?

Luke Storey: [02:46:34] It would make me feel fulfilled.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:46:38] Why would you be fulfilled with that?

Luke Storey: [02:46:43] Because it would add richness to my experience.

Luke Storey: [02:46:47] Yeah. Variety and a change in perspective.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:46:51] And what are you doing to do that right now?

Luke Storey: [02:46:56] I think really putting some effort into my present moment awareness to appreciate the nuance of the moment.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:47:05] Okay. Rock on.

Luke Storey: [02:47:07] Rock on to you, my friend. Thanks, Garnet.

Garnet Dupuis: [02:47:10] My pleasure, absolutely, man.

Luke Storey: [02:47:15] Well, that's it y'all. If you made it to this point, it tells me a lot about you. You are likely someone who wants to expand, to learn, to grow, and perhaps most of all, to awaken. And I'm so thankful that people like Garnett put their brains and hearts into technologies that can assist all of us in doing just that. If you were intrigued by Garnett's information here and want to snag a NeuroVizr of your very own, go to neurovizr.com, where the code LUKE100 will save you $100. 

All right. On to next week's episode, we're just going to keep them coming here in 2023. Next week's show is called The Future of Fitness: electrical stimulation and neuro physical therapy with NeuFit's Garrett Salpeter. And I highly recommend you tune in to that one-- another fascinating deep dive into a wild technology. If you want to learn how to use tech to fix your joints, pain, and injuries in record time, you definitely want to tune in. 

Just like the show you just heard, it's going to deliver some powerful information that could very well change your life. So thanks for joining me on the wild and never-ending ride called The Life Stylist. Until we meet again next week, stay free, my friends.

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