[00:00:00] Luke: Welcome to part 2 of the Best of the Life Stylist Podcast 2025 Edition. Now before we dive in, I want to say this clearly and directly from my heart. Thank you so much for listening and supporting the show this year, seriously. In the media landscape built on distraction, outrage, and noise, you chose long-form conversation. You chose nuance. You chose depth.

[00:00:23] And that matters more than most people realize. This podcast exists because you listen, share, and support it. So if this episode resonates, please pass it along. Send it to a friend, a family member, someone you care about who's looking for something expansive and real. That simple act keeps this work alive.

[00:00:42] We've been going steady here since 2016, and you are the reason I keep pouring my energy and care into doing this show. Now the conversations you're about to hear push into territory most shows won't touch.

[00:00:54] You'll hear Erwan Le Corre dismantle modern fitness myths and remind us that reclaiming natural movement isn't about performance. It's about becoming fully human again at any age. Then Melissa Kupsch pulls the curtain back on homeopathy, what it actually is, how it works on the vital life force, and why systems that restore true autonomy tend to get buried.

[00:01:16] Then my boy Jim Poole breaks down how Nucalm works at a neurological level and why stress relief meditation and flow states don't have to take decades of discipline to access. Tricia Eastman takes us into the lineage of iboga, not as a trend or escape, but as a serious initiation that demands preparation, reverence, and respect.

[00:01:37] Then we get a little wild. Mike Wilkerson challenges our understanding of earth itself, exploring the possibility that mountains, forests, and fossils tell a very different story about our past than what we've been taught.

[00:01:50] And if you're looking to start off the new year with some abundance, Elizabeth Ralph reframes money as energy, karma, and consciousness, and why wealth becomes stressful the moment it outpaces awareness.

[00:02:02] Then we keep it super real with Andrew Wakefield as he speaks candidly about censorship, professional exile, and why vaccine conversations are effectively forbidden. Not because they're settled, but because they're too dangerous to the power structures that be.

[00:02:18] Curtis Stone brings it back to the soil, reminding us that sovereignty starts with food, land, and the courage to opt out of fragile systems. And Isis Andrea opens the door to ancient memory, ritual, origin stories, warriorhood, and the reclamation of parts of ourselves modern life trained us to forget.

[00:02:35] I've had so many incredible conversations this year that it was really hard to narrow it down, which is why we had to do two episodes. So I'll just say this episode is about thinking clearly, feeling deeply, and reclaiming authority over your own life.

[00:02:50] And if 2025 was about asking better questions, 2026 is our time for integration and embodiment. I am so pumped about the coming year. It's going to bring new formats, deeper investigations, more solo transmissions, expanded video, and conversations that go even further off the map, while, of course, staying rooted in lived experience, integrity, and truth.

[00:03:13] So thank you so much for being part of this community and for listening, and most of all, thank you for sharing this show far and wide. All right, let's get down. For those that are unfamiliar with MovNat, I think many people now that are into wellness and stuff are familiar with the idea of natural movement, functional movement, etc. But you were the first guy I ever heard of many years ago to even be bringing these ideas of how does a natural human in a natural environment move, and how are we meant to move and things like that.

[00:03:38] So I've always been fascinated with your work, and it's always resonated just on a fundamental level. Like, "Oh yeah, duh, why are we going to a gym doing these repetitive movements that a human ape in the wild would never do? Why aren't we doing movements that are actually necessary to be in a body and travel about the earth and take care of yourself?" So yeah, you've been on my list of podcast guests for, I don't know, nine years.

[00:04:02] I think you're on my original list of 100 people I wanted to interview. So it took a while, but here we are. Yeah. But give us the breakdown on what is MovNat. How did that come to be for people that are unfamiliar?

[00:04:24] Erwan: Yes. MovNat is for moving naturally your movement in nature. It's that idea of we all universally have abilities to move that are vital to our species. So if you think about the so-called animal kingdom, dolphins move like dolphins and eagles move like eagles. So a dolphin cannot climb a tree, cannot fly in the sky. But an eagle cannot dive deep in the ocean and do things like that.

[00:04:37] Why? Because they have their own natural movement, and each species have them, and so do we. We human beings have a whole scope of skills, of natural movement abilities that we can turn into skills. So if we're impressed, say, by the agility of a tiger, of a wild animal, how do they become fit like that without a gym? Just by being themselves, by following the program that's in their DNA in the environment where that program evolved over time.

[00:05:01] So tigers got to do the tiger thing. You're a tiger cub and you start doing all these little funnings, and sprinting, and pouncing, and climbing, and playing. We do exactly the same. It doesn't matter that you were born in Africa, in Asia, in Europe, any continent, any place, regardless of your background, what your parents are, [Inaudible], whatever, it doesn't matter. All kids, you look at them, they'll all move the same. What does that say? They are physically expressing that program, and by playing through those natural movements, they would normally end up being really physically capable.

[00:05:58] Physically capable for what? For the real world, which originally, long time ago, was nature. Means you would be able to hike, to climb, to balance, to jump and land, to lift and carry things. All real world, real life movements.

[00:06:13] And that program is being stopped. It's like you don't want the kids to do all these things. It's never the right time or the right place. Don't do that. It's going to be noisy. You're going to break things. You're going to hurt yourself. At some point, after being told that all the time, what do you do? You stop moving.

[00:06:42] But if it's left to you as a kid now, every kid, what do they do? They vault over the couch. They crawl under the table. They step on the chair and jump off of it. And they turn your nice apartment into a playground, a playground for their natural movement. They want it so bad because it's fun. It's challenging. It builds their confidence.

[00:07:17] It's that physical interaction with the world that's practical and adaptable. It's directly useful, and it's instantly rewarding. Kids get instant gratification when they do it, and it's very, very hard to stop them. If we remember ourselves when we're kids, all those times where that drive was repressed and we were told no, not the right place, not the right time, it's never the right place, not the right time.

[00:07:24] So a big part of our instinct is being repressed and somehow oppressed. And then in the end, what happens is that a lot of people, they lose their innate taste for movement, for being physically active. So by one day when they are grownups, they're told, okay, now you're going to learn proper fitness. It's time to exercise.

[00:08:09] And they're going to be brought to a gym, or you're going to have machines, exercise machines. They're going to basically dictate their movement patterns. The machine tells you exactly what to do.

[00:08:23] It's that movement. And that movement, it's not adaptable, it's not natural. It's complete artificial. Everything's artificial. The movements you do, very partial, very regimented. The environment where you are. So basically it's more work. It's a chore that you have to impose yourself because if I don't do it, then I'm lazy. I'm going to be out of shape and whatnot.

[00:08:43] So to me, the whole thing is messed up. We should just let the kids be and encourage them to keep doing what they instinctively do, which is the truth of their physicality. Until they become highly capable, they can jump and land and climb and run on divers’ terrains. They're not afraid. They're not reckless either. They're just adapted and adaptable. And this could be a reality for human beings, but it's not what our culture wants from us.

[00:09:09] Luke: Thinking about a baby goes from being born to a car seat to eating meals in a baby seat at the table. Maybe they're being held and swinging around if they're breastfeeding or something. But basically, from the moment we're born, we're just trained to be in one of these things.

[00:09:40] Erwan: Containers.

[00:09:41] Luke: Yeah. And then you go to school, you sit in a little-- I don't know if they have those little torture chambers called desks anymore. Because I haven't seen a school in a while. But I remember sitting in those things, just going nuts. And then you get older and you get your driver's license.

[00:09:55] You sit in a car. You drive to work. You go sit at work, depending on what you do. You come home. You sit on the couch. You watch TV. It's like the whole human life cycle is basically centered around sitting. It's fucking weird.

[00:10:09] Erwan: Seating is a form of containment. What you're talking about is the diversity of containers that we go through. We are constantly contained. So it can be in a car, in a car seat to begin with, a desk, like a mini version of a cubicle. And it can be a chair. It's about containment.

[00:10:33] And physical containment leads to behavioral containment. Means what you're taught by being told stay there in that one place, that container is yours, and you should not misbehave. You should not jump and vault and move at all. All you can do is to pay attention and talk when you're asked to. That's it. That's control. When it's pushed that much so systematically, to me, it's abuse.

[00:11:07] Because it takes away your enjoyment, your freedom to explore, to live, to be. And not that it is not important to also teach children to behave, to learn about the importance of context. You're in a restaurant. You're not supposed to yell and be wild. It's normal. But when it's always, all the time, everywhere, including at home, then the message is, you know what? You're not going to have any freedom.

[00:11:11] We're going to tell exactly how to be, who to be, and what to be and how, and it's going to happen in every single behavior that you're going to go through since little to until you're ready to go to work, get a job. So we learn to contain ourselves, to not be spontaneous or minimally. So you wonder why there is so much mental illness and psychological issues when people can never be really themselves. So it's a culture of containment. That's what it is.

[00:11:38] Luke: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I never made the correlation between the physical containment and the containment of emotional expression, creative thought, ingenuity. It's like we're sitting in boxes our whole life. It's like, no wonder so few of us think big. It's like you see the speed at which our civilization evolves is exceedingly slow, in terms of like quantum leaps.

[00:12:00] I don't know. I'm only 54. You're 53. A few things have changed. There's bee technological advances and stuff. But in terms of the system and the institutions by which we operate as a species are thousands of years old and haven't really changed.

[00:13:00] We were talking about ruling class and the hierarchical system and things like that earlier, and it's pretty much just different wrapping paper on the same box over and over and over again. And I bet that has a lot to do with the fact that we're so disembodied and just so locked down physically, that we're not expansive in mind and spirit.

[00:13:14] Erwan: There is an absolute very strong correlation between the two indeed. Absolutely.

[00:13:33] Luke: Talk to me about the history. I think one of the things that really inspired me to want to have a conversation with you, as I was telling you before we started recording is how you described the way that this particular modality has been vilified and squashed by the powers that be over the years.

[00:13:51] And that makes me much more interested in it. It's like if the powers that be, or the powers that shouldn't be, I guess maybe more aptly stated, if they try to suppress something, then it means that it works and it's good for you. Therefore, it makes me intrigued. But run me through the timeline of at least as far back we know, when homeopathy began to be used widely and why so few people are aware of it at this point.

[00:13:56] Melissa: Mm. So you are looking around the late 1700s when Samuel Hahnemann-- so he's a medical physician. He's the founder of homeopathy. He's graduated medical school, and it's really heroic medicine around that time. And he's just watching what they're doing in their conventional medical things. He's saying, "I will have none of this, none of this blood on my hands." And so he resigned from that. And he started translating medical texts.

[00:14:24] He was this crazy smart guy. He knew over 11 languages, which put him at a massive advantage in terms of medicine because he's translating the text from all of these different places where some people might have been limited by the barrier of language to understand what the Germans were doing or other countries.

[00:14:56] He was able to read all of them and translate it. So he was learning a lot. He then got the opportunity to work in the largest library of esoteric texts in the world, and that was in Romania, under this Baron von Brukenthal. So you can imagine the sorts of works that he's reading in there, all of these esoteric texts.

[00:15:19] So that's like Isaac Newton's work on alchemy, a lot of it, Paracelsus. So he's reading and getting exposed to a lot of those concepts. So that would've been huge in all of the revelations he later had. He was very much helped by what he got to read and learn through that.

[00:15:42] So then in his translating of texts, he's realized this principle of like cures like, and he starts to trial it. And he uses small doses at the start, but they were still doses that had enough toxins in them that people were still getting side effects of this like cures like process.

[00:16:07] So he kept experimenting with it and diluting it and succussing those crude elements until he realized, wow, I'm onto this. Now I've got no side effects and all healing. We can do it this energetic way. So he's really founding homeopathy there in that.

[00:16:33] Where homeopathy started to get really famous was when there were a lot of these epidemics historically, whether that was Spanish flu, cholera, scarlet fever, which back then was wiping out a lot of people.

[00:16:49] And the cause of that-- a lot of people have different opinions about what really was the Spanish flu. Was it toxicity? Was it something else? But regardless of what people think the root of the issue was, the reality is that homeopathy was healing people. And so you look at the statistics from those hospitals, a lot of people in the US would not know that you guys had over 100 homeopathic hospitals built across the United States. And I'm not talking little clinics. We are talking big hospitals, sometimes 3,000 beds and massive--

[00:17:12] Luke: We know none of this history.

[00:17:14] Melissa: No. And over 1,000 homeopathic pharmacies you guys had all across. So amazing. In New York, Massachusetts. There's so many. And you guys have your Washington monuments that you honor people. You guys only have one medical physician that you have in all of those statues, and it is Samuel Hahnemann.

[00:17:52] So it was loved by presidents, a lot of the elites throughout the years. I went into a Santa Monica homeopathic pharmacy the other day, and they've been open and operating for 80 years, but they had this photo on the wall. It was so gorgeous, and it's hundreds of homeopathic physicians, and they were getting their group photo at the White House. I don't know how old-- was it 18? Maybe 1920, the photo from then, but just beautiful.

[00:18:07] And so homeopathy in that era was revered, and it was really climbing in popularity. And when you look at the statistics from those hospitals when the epidemics were coming through, you can look at the research, the documented number of people who died in the conventional hospitals versus the homeopathic hospitals, and it's very clear, where you're looking at conventional, the rates were around 30%.

[00:18:19] A guy named Dean Pearson did a massive study of 26,700 people who were treated homeopathically for the same epidemics, and their mortality rate was 1.05%. It was massively, massively different. So that's when it really got popular. And you read the old texts, and the homeopaths, people would find out where they lived, and they would have lines around the block from people who wanted to come and get homeopathically treated in those times when they could see what worked and what didn't.

[00:19:09] So it's rising. Then you've got people like J. D. Rockefeller, loved homeopathy. Most people know he's considered largely the father of modern medicine. But before he went down the petrochemical route, he loved homeopathy. His family had three private homeopaths. They always had them. They never let go of their homeopaths.

[00:19:40] He lived into his 90s, and he famously said, "Homeopathy is a progressive and aggressive step in medicine." That's J. D. Rockefeller himself saying that. But then he started to make money and then he realized, well, we need to get homeopathy out of these universities, because it was like this domino effect of all of the conventionally trained physicians when they would come into contact with a homeopath.

[00:20:21] And they talk about this in the old texts. You couldn't put down the homeopaths for not being, I think, learned is what they would say in that era. Because the homeopaths, they were largely medical physicians first. So they stood in their own power. Midwives back then were fobbed off and not respected the way they should be, but the homeopaths, it was an equal fight back then.

[00:21:02] So whenever they would talk to their medical friends and say, "Hey, I have found this new way. Come and look at what I can do with this medicine." Everybody would convert because they were healing what they were told was incurable. So that's where it really got very popular. Then ultimately over the years we've seen pharma rising up, the stronghold. They made it after the Flexner Report. They actually made it a law in the US that if medical doctors fraternize with homeopaths, if you consult on a case together, we will strip your medical license.

[00:22:15] Luke: Really?

[00:22:16] Melissa: That was an actual thing. But there was only one place that they couldn't get away it, and that was in Boston. And it was because they had so many high up politicians that loved homeopathy. That was the one state, it took longer for them to get this in. Because they were just like, "No, you're not doing that here."

[00:22:34] So people actually lost their medical license, their right to practice medicine if they were talking to homeopaths. That's how threatened that system is, because they know if they realized how the body actually works and how to actually heal things-- even doctors in this day and age, a lot of people put them down because they're only Band-Aiding and suppressing. And we can see that. But a lot of them don't know that there is a better way that you can actually do it, whether it's eczema, asthma, hay fever, allergies.

[00:22:37] They literally have been taught that there is no way, and the best option you can give is to help people suppress it. And if they really knew the essence of homeopathy and what it could achieve, well, we just flip everything upside down, because I think most doctors, they're good people at heart.

[00:23:31] Jim: So 2016 was the genesis and the beginning of shifting a medical company that was doing really well. We were serving cancer patients and doctors and pilots and athletes and military. It was great, but it wasn't good enough. We needed to help more people.

[00:23:38] If we have the only solution in the world, this isn't a Band-Aid. I'm not managing your symptom. I'm solving your stress in your mid-brain, where it starts. Then we need to get this to the masses. They deserve it. Humanity deserves it. So that was the shift in our company, and it all happened in different ways. But it was weird because in November 15th, 2021, we launched the app. And in that day, one single day, we went from a one product company to five products-- in one day.

[00:24:13] Who does that? How'd that happen? It just was the parallel path. Deep Sleep took us the longest, Focus, KwikState, all these different things. And they just came together. And we're like, "Okay, we're ready to go." So today we took, which was the most powerful therapy and the only patented therapy in the world for balancing the nervous system.

[00:24:22] We took that, and we expanded the outcome by changing the mathematics in the matrix. The endpoint was no longer 4 hertz. The endpoint was 0.5 hertz. The endpoint was no longer 4 hertz. The endpoint was 7.83 hertz. Once we perfected that, because in the science world, we will discover, invent, trial and error, figure it out, but then we had to go through clinical validation, all the studies, all the quantification, and then the subjective stuff, and we had all this access points.

[00:25:10] So it was a fascinating science journey. But in July of 2022, we launched Focus, which was our sixth and final product. And at that point, we as a neuroscience company had solved the riddle of all 41 hertz of human brainwave function. So you literally, as a human today, and this is a really cool thing to think about because this product and this way of us living will change how humans live for forever.

[00:25:37] You can literally, today, if you wanted, take all your accelerant drinks, your coffee drinks, your sugary drinks, your sodas, alcohol, recreational drugs, pharmaceuticals, everything. Put it on one side of the table, and the other side of the table, put the NuCalm app and a headphone. We figured it out. We solved how to modulate with the exceptional precision, your brainwave frequencies.

[00:26:01] People were like, "You're controlling my brain." I said, yeah. So is everything else, caffeine, alcohol, recreational drugs, pharmaceuticals, a hug, intimacy, conflict, exercise. So two things at play for us, Luke, and we only have to educate you on how your brain works. So you're like, "Okay, this is possible." And then we have to say, "This is what we did."

[00:26:27] But we have created a way for you as a human to modulate your brainwave frequency so that you can now be in command of your patients, your presence, your personality, your executive functioning, your logic, your ability to either respond or react to stress, your ability to sleep, your ability to focus, your ability to elevate. You can do anything with a mobile app.

[00:26:55] So yeah, it's definitely a challenge on the education side. And do we suffer fools? Listen, I'm not in a place to judge anymore. I see how the patterns work, and I see, of course, you compare us to a mobile app. That's fine. But all you have to do is try it. I think one of the biggest things that we've done, we're the world's leading experts in solving complex neuroscience problems with complex neuroscience solutions.

[00:27:22] Nobody's done what we've done before. And the patents showcase the novelty and the efficacy, and we stand alone. We're in a category of one on neuroscience. Great. We're really social psychologists. If we don't make this easy for you, it doesn't matter. I don't care how complicated. I don't care how cool the science is. Who cares?

[00:27:43] If you don't use it, then it's a failure. That's what drove us to the simplicity. So now today there's 8.4 billion people that inhabit planet Earth. 7 billion people have access to a mobile device. So our total addressable market today is 7 billion humans that we can help modulate and solve your stress, improve your sleep quality, help you focus like a laser on demand, and elevate your energy.

[00:28:08] And all you need is a mobile app and a headphone. So if that doesn't get you excited and be like, "Holy shit." I've been doing this for 16 years. I still cannot reconcile the magnitude of what we're doing. It is so profound. This is generations of shift changing in how we live. And I'll be long gone on my next life, my next adventure, when people start realizing, wow, this has happened.

[00:28:34] And that's really fun. And so does it get tiresome to look at people and they look at you like you're crazy? Sure, it does. I've learned not to. So here's my elevator pitch. You're ready? Hey, Luke. How're you doing with sleep? Not too well. Of course, you're not. Nobody's sleeping well. You're not alone. How about stress? Eh. How would you like to have access?

[00:28:55] Used to be exclusively available only to elite military, like Navy Seals and special forces operators, pilots, professional athletes, celebrities and doctors. Would you like access to that? Used to be a 6,000-dollar FDA class III medical device. Today it's available in a mobile app for low as 50 cents a day. That's all I say.

[00:29:17] Luke: That's pretty good.

[00:29:17] Jim: Because I don't need to explain it anymore.

[00:29:19] Luke: I think to your point about someone trying a Rescue track three times, it's a thing that you just have to experience.

[00:29:24] Jim: You do.

[00:29:24] Luke: And I don't know. For me, there's no turning back. I would freak out if the app disappeared and you guys just went away. I don't want to say I depend on it in a negative way, but it's one of my primary tools.

[00:29:35] Jim: You can say you depend on a negative way. Listen, it'd be like--

[00:29:38] Luke: I like to think that I have all the resources within me. And on one level I do, but it's really nice to have tools that support me in being able to do that.

[00:29:45] Jim: You don't have to qualify having a tool to help you. And you're right. Years ago, I came to this realization, and I would tell people, you can take anything from me in this life except for my family and my NuCalm. I will kill you, period. I can't live without it.

[00:29:59] Luke: Tell me how the Focus tracks work. Because last time we sat down, I think the first time it was still like $4,000 or something, and I felt bad for even telling people about it. Because who has four grand laying around?

[00:30:20] Jim: A lot more people than you think because you know what? Cancer, addiction, trauma-- trust me, people find other modalities. So yeah.

[00:30:27] Luke: But then in the second one, it was mostly based on the Rescue tracks, the nervous system relaxing, those meditative states. But since then, the Focus one came out, and every once in a while, I look at the app and there's an update. There's a mastermind one now with some deep hidden tracks and stuff, which I love.

[00:30:37] But the Focus one, and then there's a FlowState menu too. And so those are new, and I'm just like, "Ah, I don't know. I think these guys, they do the relaxing thing, not to discredit, you." But I was like, "Ah, they probably just threw that in there because why not?" I started using the focus one and I'm like, "What the fuck, dude?" I'm pretty focused already." I have pretty good brain. I've built the capacity for focus. I've done a lot of neurofeedback.

[00:30:53] I've worked on my brain a lot because I did so much damage to it when I was young and stupid, or young and traumatized, depending on how you look at it. Probably a bit of both. But when I really noticed was when I started writing my book, which has been an ongoing process-- and that requires, for anyone that's attempted to or completed the writing of a book-- you talk about the level of focus and creativity that you need to be able to do that.

[00:31:20] It's hours and hours and hours and hours a day sitting there and hopefully not moving much, of just like getting the ideas out. And dude, those Focus tracks, I've been through all of them. There's some of different lengths. Some have rain. Some have a little music. I just put it on repeat so it don't get the end chime. It just keeps going and going. And I'll put on, I think it's the one Full Focus.

[00:31:54] It's the one with the rain that I find works the best for me because I don't start listening to other sounds. It's just like sssh. It's probably rain from freaking Bali or wherever you guys recorded it. Dude, and I'll set the repeat thing on that and go through cycle after cycle. It's three or four hours I'm at the computer, and finally, my body goes like, "Dude, you should get up and do some squats and move around. You're sitting too long." But as far as my brain's capacity to do focused work, but also creative work at the same time, it's nuts, dude.

[00:32:21] Jim: One thing you should know--

[00:32:23] Luke: It's absolutely insane.

[00:32:24] Jim: --about NuCalm, is we have a high degree of efficacy, trial and error, validation, clinical proof. We don't do anything with any levity, ever. You'll never see anything--

[00:32:37] Luke: So when I was like, "Ah, they just threw a Focus track on to be queued."

[00:32:40] Jim: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You have no idea. Five years of research and then validation, and then studies and quantitative EEGs, and all the stuff we do. Nothing we've ever done is done as an afterthought ever. Remember, we have created the only method. We have the only patent in the world for balancing the nervous system.

[00:32:59] But in 2021, we were awarded the only patent in the world for a method used to elicit a state change in a human brain. We have the only patent in the world. So if anyone says to you, "Hey, do this. It'll change your state," is either lying to you or they're infringing on our patent.

[00:33:38] Luke: How do you take iboga? Is it a powder? Is it a tea?

[00:33:43] Tricia: So the root is where the medicine comes from, and you harvest the root.

[00:33:48] Luke: Can you leave the tree intact and just--

[00:33:49] Tricia: Yeah, you just take off whatever you need for that initiation. And then you shave off the top layer, and then the middle layer in between the top layer and the base part of the root is shaved off. And the inner core, like with San Pedro, you know how the core part of it is not good to eat. It's the same with iboga. So you take off the top layer. You take that inner layer, and then that can be taken wet. It can be dried as a root bark. It is the most bitter plant you will ever take in your life.

[00:33:52] Many people have a gag reflex instantaneously. And if you have to take multiple spoonfuls of it, sometimes people will have trouble even holding it down before they have taken a couple spoonfuls, and then they're already starting to purge it. We have all the tricks.

[00:34:20] Luke: I've found that with peyote, powdered peyote. I'm like, "It gets more bitter than that."

[00:34:30] Tricia: More bitter than that.

[00:34:32] Luke: That's crazy.

[00:34:32] Tricia: So strong. And literally we'll have people-- I'll say, "Put your hands above your head like this and breathe." And I'll say sniff your armpits. Because it's like anything you can do to distract yourself because you want to hold the medicine down when you first take it. Later, it's fine to purge once you've soaked the medicine into your system. It's actually good to purge.

[00:34:58] And the medicine is purgative. Sometimes people can purge a lot from it. And then one of the other ways, which I talk about in my book, which I did not like, is a tea. And so in essence like lemon tekking, where you soak the iboga for a long time, not in lemon juice though. But it concentrates the alkaloids, and then it's strained out.

[00:35:25] And you drink that. And when you drink it, the taste of it travels around your mouth. And so it's very bad. Usually when you're giving it to someone, you have them wet their tongue with a little bit of water to help because it's very dry. You try to put the spoonful in the back of the tongue instead of having it spread all throughout the mouth because then it's going to be really hard to swallow.

[00:35:53] And then you say don't take too much water because you don't want to purge it up. And if you have too much water, it can make you feel like you're going to throw up. And so then you take a couple sips of water. I've had ceremonies for me where I've taken seven dump truck spoonfuls of it, and it's just like, oh, it's so hard. Get to the fourth one where I can barely hold it down.

[00:36:21] Luke: Wow. You've mentioned your book twice, and I feel bad. I haven't plugged your book.

[00:36:26] Tricia: You don't have to plug my book.

[00:36:29] Luke: No, it's called Seeding Consciousness, and we will put it in the show notes. And as I was explaining earlier, for a number of reasons, I haven't been able to sit down and read it, read it for real. But I have given it a good skimming just to get a feel for you and what you do.

[00:36:49] It's freaking awesome, and I can't wait to read it as a real reader. So I encourage people to support you. And I'll just say also as someone who's now writing a book, I think it's really important that when people listen to podcasts and they enjoy a guest and their perspective, that they follow through and actually buy their book.

[00:37:11] It's important. Because how are you going to keep doing this work? You get an advance. You write a book. Your advance is gone like long before the book ever comes out, I learned. But it's like being an author is not like a lucrative career unless, I don't know, you're super, super next level and you're selling millions and millions of books or something.

[00:37:25] So I want to encourage people to buy your book. I'm glad you mentioned it because it's funny. Every once in a while I'll have someone on the podcast, and the whole conversation, they're like, "Like it says in my book. Well, like it says in my book. As I wrote in my book." And I'm like, "We get it. Your book's right here. You don't need to promote it that hard."

[00:37:41] So you're the antithesis of that. I'm going to promote your book for you and really encourage people to go get it. With iboga I get kind of a feel for how it's made and what it's like to take it. How long does it last, and does it have any similarities in terms of the visual component or any of the felt experiences it have? Like an essence of mushrooms or ayahuasca, or is it totally its own unique thing?

[00:38:01] Tricia: So it's not even really a psychedelic. It's what's called an  oneirophrenic, which means dream maker. And it puts you in this dream-like state. And I would say that there are times in the journey where you can have very potent visuals, especially when you're taking high initiatic dosages, where literally I'll feel like a portal has just swirled and opened and I just got sucked through it.

[00:38:38] I'm in this whole different realm of dimension, and I don't have an awareness of my surroundings. As where there's times where you can just open your eyes and the visions fade away and you can see to some degree what's happening around you. And I would say that it's not consistent for everybody.

[00:39:11] It really depends on what you are coming to the medicine for. For instance, if you're coming for physical healing, it might be a very physical journey for you, and you might not have as many visions. As where I find that a lot of the more initiatic higher dose journeys that I've had-- I've done six initiations.

[00:39:52] In those journeys, they tend to be very visual, very vivid. The medicine has the craziest sense of humor. It's like watching a dark comedy movie. It feels like everything happening all at once. I don't know if you've seen that movie where it's just like weird stuff. And it's almost like you're playing pictionary with this cosmic clown who is the most-- you're just in on reverence, and it's ridiculous at the same time.

[00:40:26] For example, in the journey, I remember one time the medicine was trying to show me something, and I got it. And I could just feel that feeling of it sinking into my body of like, "Okay, I get it." And immediately the words yay in 3D come up. They look almost like little pick me, things are waving flags and they're like, "Yay."

[00:40:41] And these fireworks start going off, and I'm like, "Okay." Just strange stuff. I remember one time a person shared with me about their journey. He was like, I saw the devil, and he was sitting in a nice chair by the fire, and he was roasting marshmallows. And he looked over at me and he said, sometimes I swear I hear them screaming. The marshmallows. Weird, odd things like that.

[00:40:59] There's also, I feel like, this cosmic slop that is like very characteristic of early in the journey where it doesn't really make a lot of sense and it's just the mish match of our unconscious culture and pieces of war and darkness and different ages. Really disorienting.

[00:41:33] And then there can be a phase where you can have life review where it's almost like a screen's popping up and showing you scenes from when you were a kid, like a little invisible therapist there by side and helping you, communicating in some way to help you integrate those experiences.

[00:42:06] And then, there is what I would call really the initiatic aspect of it. And many times people claim to see the entire mystery school of creation. It's like going through the first organism, through all of the different era of our planet. Being in Atlantis, being in Lemuria, going through all of these different ages, and maybe even seeing some of the things that are foretold in the future.

[00:42:29] And it tends to be a very common theme when people have done all of their own inner and unconscious clearing work that they get-- in the initiations themselves, there are specific mystery schools. And in each of those mystery schools, there are specific rituals and specific ways that the morphogenic field or the ceremony space is set for the individual to experience that.

[00:43:02] For example, the  Mumbayano initiation, which was my first initiation, that's the initiation where you meet your soul. And the whole goal of the entire initiation, no matter what's happening, is every person that comes up to you, you're like, "Hi. Are you my  Mumbayano?" And you talk to every person and you engage with them until you meet your  Mumbayano and you learn who your  Mumbayano is.

[00:43:58] And then if you're in Gabon when you receive this initiation, then you go to a traditional Gabonese tailor, and they make you a costume of your  Mumbayano, and you essentially wear that in ceremony. Some people have multiple  Mumbayanos, but they're basically the archetypes that represent our soul. One person was a Pharaoh that I saw in Gabon. One person was Moses.

[00:44:44] They all have these just very colorful costumes that they wear in ceremony that are the representation of their soul through that initiation. So if you're doing it in an initiatic context, there can be some very specific things that happen. Although I've seen people, and I've experienced this working with others with the medicine, where they have an initiatic experience.

[00:45:14] That's exactly like what happens in some of those initiations. They describe what's happened, and you're like, "Oh, wow, they had the Mimbara, which we're not really allowed to talk about what those are. Obviously, if someone has that experience, then you would have that individual conversation with them, but yeah.

[00:45:36] Luke: Wow. What a trip.

[00:45:41] Mike: I came across a video, I think it was called No Forests on Flat Earth about eight years ago. And that was presenting this idea that these tabletop mountains and the tepuis, these famous just plateaus that jet upward in Venezuela, and they have these waterfalls that just perpetually run from the top of them, that those might actually be the remains of giant trees.

[00:46:00] And a lot of it was very visually compelling, but I wasn't ready to throw my hat in the race when it came to any of that. I just thought it was cool. And then later on I was exposed to the idea that a lot of the dating systems might be inaccurate and that things might actually petrify a lot quicker than we were taught.

[00:46:05] And I was like, "Wow, that's interesting." Because our geological timelines support our heliocentric timelines, the cosmological timelines. It's all baked into one thing. And we're told the universe is 16 point something billion years old, and then the Earth is 4.6, I believe. They know this because with their telescopes, they've looked back in time to where everything supposedly originated from, and they know what day it happened.

[00:46:31] Luke: That's the claim, for real?

[00:46:33] Mike: No, not the day. I'm being sarcastic. But that's the idea, is that they're extrapolating based on this telescope information. And then you've got your geological timelines. And so mega flora and mega fauna exists in the mainstream model also. We have the dinosaur narrative, and then we have all of these examples of gigantic plant life and insects and other things in the fossil record.

[00:46:58] So the cataclysm has been discussed in the mainstream, and they say that there are five major dyings off that have occurred in our realm. And if you go to the ancients and you look at the ancient cosmologies, and you look at the mythologies and the legends, these things are all supporting the stuff that I've been finding, which I wasn't aware of when I began. It just began as a what if.

[00:47:22] Like what if these big trees were real? And what if the myths of titans had some basis in fact beyond just dinosaurs that got wiped out by an asteroid strike 65 million years ago? And then also just what is stone? There's a lot of stone that I've seen. I always love to collect rocks and gems, and I love the beauty of them and felt like they had some energetic thing going on.

[00:47:56] But I never understood what is stone, and there were a lot of things that I saw that looked biological to me. I work as a chiropractor in Spain, and I trained-- after my undergraduate degree in California, I moved to Europe, and then I ended up in Sweden, and I did my chiropractic training in Sweden.

[00:48:27] And so anatomy, histology, which is the study of tissue, biology, these are things that I've studied a lot. But I never considered that maybe that stone that I was looking at that has a biological look to it had a far more direct connection to biology than we were taught.

[00:48:49] Because ultimately, we're taught that all the layers of the earth are from dead plant and animal life that have laid down, created the soil, eventually compressed. And that compresses into these sedimentary layers, especially when it's under the ocean floor, because you get all the pressure from the water.

[00:49:12] Then those layers become more and more compact, and they start to melt, and we call that metamorphic rock because it's morphing into something else. What's it morphing into? Ultimately into magma and lava. And then it shoots up through the volcanoes. And then that's the cycle of petrogenesis, sedimentary to metamorphic to magma, and then comes back and it loops back around.

[00:49:31] And I never questioned any of that stuff. I was never that interested in geology. I was always space. We want to get off this rock before we get hit by a rock. So I was a big Star Trek and Star Wars lover. My kids, I tried to play the original Star Treks to them, and they laughed me out of the room because they were just already way too sophisticated.

[00:49:55] Their video games are way better than the stuff they were showing us back then in the '70s. And it began with the trees. And then I live in this town that has this mountain, it's called Montgó, M-O-N-T-G-O, with a little apostrophe on the O. And it's also known as the elephant because it looks a lot like an elephant that's lying down with its head tilted back.

[00:50:17] And I always loved this mountain. I've lived in Spain now for 14 years, and I'd been hiking this mountain seven or eight years before these ideas popped into my head. And one of the cardinal features of this mountain, when you look at it from the side, is there's a cave. So you have a head shape, and there's a cave exactly where the eye would be that's shaped like an eye socket.

[00:50:48] We have this eyebrow ridge above our eye. Elephants don't have eyebrows, but they've got that bony protuberance there, and that's there. And I started looking at that thing, going, "What if that was a petrified creature?" I thought, this is a fun exercise. It's a intellectual flight of fancy.

[00:51:05] I felt the same thing about flat earth. A lot of people have these knee jerk reactions to flat earth, like, you're an idiot if you even consider such a thing. And I'm like, are you though? And the people who are promoting these ideas, do they have any ideas that have merit, or are they just idiots? And the more you dig, the more you find out.

[00:51:27] These are people who are doing empirical experimentation. They're doing laser tests. They're doing mirror flash tests. They've got infrared photography and are seeing hundreds of miles, which doesn't make sense on a ball that's the size they tell us. They're sending up balloons to look at the horizon at 125,000 feet.

[00:51:48] You don't hear this about the flat earthers. You just hear that they're fools that have fallen for whatever the latest psyop is. So I decided to play this what if game. And I'll say be careful of the what if questions you ask because they can change your life irrevocably. Definitely happened with my life.

[00:52:15] So I initially started with just Google Earth, looking in 3D because you can tilt and pan and rotate. And learned how to use the mouse and hold the control. After about an hour of looking at this mountain on Google Earth, I was like, there's 10 different features.

[00:52:40] Now, I didn't know the word for pareidolia, but I was aware of the concept. Pareidolia is where you see something that's not real. You see a face in a cloud or you see a face in knots and wood or something like that. That's pareidolia. Obviously, it's not a real face. It looks like one.

[00:52:52] And I was aware of that, but this was-- because there were a lot of photographs going around. You had the tree thing, and then you had people looking at mountain scapes. And it looks like a titan creature lying on its back. And you can see the outline of the face and everything.

[00:53:10] I was like, "Okay, that's cool, but let's see it from lots of different angles. Let's see it up close and personal." Are there caves there where the eye sockets should be? What does it look like inside the cave? Is there anything that matches anatomy inside the cave? And there was none of that.

[00:53:27] I thought the images were compelling, but there's no follow-up. There's no in-depth analysis. So I'm looking on Google Earth, and there were 10 different features. The head shape is correct. The eye is located correctly. There was a quarter moon-shaped discoloration on the mountain where it looked like an ear would've been removed.

[00:53:45] And then where the head meets the shoulders on both sides of the mountain, it curves in there. And then you have what appears to be a spine, what appear to be rib cage, and a big, deep canyon between where the legs would be, which I had climbed up many times and never pondered I might be an ant on some gigantic creature.

[00:54:10] And so after that first foray into Google Earth, I had a laundry list of 10 different anatomical correlations on the macro. And I was like, "This is crazy." Already it was getting weird because I loved to play game of games of chance. Backgammon is one of my favorite games. And I know what odds are.

[00:54:32] The odds of seeing a mountain that looks like a face, that's not very high. If you've got a active imagination, you're artistic minded. But when you start adding to the list and you have specificities, it gets less and less likely that what you're looking at is pareidolia.

[00:55:11] Luke: What started to become really clear to me was that the difference between someone who is super wealthy and someone who is poor has less to do with their aptitude in making money and more so to do with the rich person simply believes it's easy to be rich and the poor person thinks it's difficult.

[00:55:11] And that that might have something to do in some cases with the idea of generational wealth, when it's not a case of like, oh, generational wealth is because you inherited all these assets as your ancestors passed away, but more so about the generational wealth mindset where from the time you were a baby, you just saw the people around you treating money as this infinite resource that just comes easily and it just happens and therefore you grow up without the limitation.

[00:55:35] Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:03] Luke: Whereas if you grow up in a home, like I did, where it wasn't talked about a lot, but my mom was a waitress and there wasn't a lot of money. Both child support from my dad thankfully, but it's like where I grew up was we looked at the rich people as a different kind of people.

[00:56:20] And we saw ourselves as poor. And it's like, I think that's the deciding factor, is like, how you see yourself. And I thought, holy shit, my whole life I've looked at rich people with kind of some disdain. Especially rich men, that they're assholes. You know what I mean? Because some of that--

[00:56:40] Elizabeth: They had to do something greedy and awful to get it.

[00:56:41] Luke: Exactly. That kind of thing. And I was like, "Whoa, what if it's almost as simple as, if you view yourself on this side of the fence as we are the poors and they're the rich over there, and especially if there's some kind of resentment or envy or jealousy of those rich, you will never cross the fence until you start seeing yourself as one of the riches, you know?

[00:56:43] Elizabeth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:56:44] Luke: It was around that. As I said, I don't know that I can articulate it perfectly, but in the moment, it was such a massive epiphany because I just thought, what if you just decide that you're on the other side of the ledger? I'm rich. Maybe I don't see it right here in the manifest.

[00:57:11] But if I start to see that in the mindset and understand also that there are an infinite number of humans in the world that have financial resources and are actually really good, amazing people and contribute good to the world rather than being extractive and exploitive. So let's start there. What's your take on the two sides of that equation in terms of mindset?

[00:57:41] Elizabeth: You're spot on with it. I call it money normalization, which is basically like, if you-- and you can take anything. If you have a toilet that flushes versus that doesn't. That becomes part of your normal world. It's funny. When you were telling this, I was thinking about, I saw this reel the other day where this little kid, there was a bicycle laying on its side and then there was a chicken. This little boy, he takes this chicken, and he puts the chicken on the bicycle seat.

[00:57:45] The bicycle is still lying down. He's putting the chicken back on the seat and back on the seat. And I'm thinking, this chicken doesn't want to be sitting on the bicycle seat. I kid you not, he gets the chicken on the seat and he position it so the chicken was holding onto the edge of the bicycle. And then the little boy goes, and he picks the bicycle up, and the chicken's still on the seat.

[00:58:12] And he gets on the bicycle, and he and the chicken ride off. And I was like, no one told this little boy that you can't put a chicken on the back of a bicycle. So it was not in his mind at all that he could not put a chicken on the back of the bicycle. No one, no adult, no one came around to tell him that.

[00:58:36] So it was like, it was outside of his thinking. And so you're exactly right. We can call it a standard because the money that we have in our life right now exactly matches the standard that we've chosen, and we've decided on. But that's based on what is inside of our world that we believe is normal.

[00:58:56] Because a lot of people, they want more money, but they don't want to sacrifice to be able to get more money because that feels like you're giving something away. But we're happy to do things that feel normal. So that didn't feel like a sacrifice that little boy to do that 10 times or how many times ever.

[00:59:16] It was just something he was like, "This is just going to happen." So if we could take our vision, let's say a million dollars or whatever, and it's just normal that we're going to do the things to get the million dollars and there's no other voice whatsoever in our head that says we haven't done it or this person over here lost this, or the big one is time-- it's going to take me so much time to get it-- then what we would do is we'd be diminishing the gap.

[00:59:48] Because that's all we're trying to do, is diminish the gap. But what we do when we think it's going to take us time to get something all we're doing is feeding the gap. Because when I say it's going to take me three months to get a million dollars, what I really believe is I'm agreeing to wait.

[01:00:08] Luke: Oh, that's good. That's good. You just reminded me-- back in the day, I used to make vision boards and stuff. A lot of people poo poo them. I kept having to make new ones every year because the shit would come true. You know what I mean? I'd be like, "Okay, it works." And then, I don't know, it was just-- it's laborious to build them. So then I started making basically just flashcards.

[01:00:37] And yeah, I put just audacious goals and dreams on them and then review them every year. And many of them would come true, but many of the ones that didn't come true were the ones for which I attributed a date. And then I'd look at that date, like, ah, 2020. Shit, it's 2022, and I still haven't done that or gotten that or whatever. And then I beat myself up.

[01:01:10] So I stopped putting dates on them because I'm just like, "I don't want to--" I could make it happen faster, and for whatever, God's plan might make it much longer, and then I'll blame myself because it didn't happen when I envisioned it getting done. In general, just goal setting, not just in finances, but what do you think about putting a timeline on that? Do you think it's going to impose a limitation or light a fire under our ass to actually start to implement the steps to achieving the goal?

[01:01:31] Elizabeth: I think, really, it comes down to, what side do you want to play in? Do you want to play in the 3D space of money? Which is, you can put a timeline together and you can put a whole plan together and then every single day you can get up and do something and do something and do something. You can check your results. And if it's investing, you can check your account, all that.

[01:01:52] That's the old way of living. We grew up watching our parents do that, right? It's just like, you clock in, you clock out. I think most people listening to this, or most people who are in my world, they don't really want to play that. So if you don't want to play that game, you can't take certain pieces from that game.

[01:02:08] And time would be one of them. So if you want to play in the energy of money, then you would not put a wish out there for it to take time, because time actually doesn't even belong in that realm. And if you look at it, you've actually already proven this to yourself. Because if you look back, money has never come to you in the way that you thought, and money has never come to you in the time that you thought.

[01:02:31] The linear relationship for money only exists in your planning. There's no linear relationship whatsoever when it comes to the energy of money. And so your willingness to let that go is actually your acceptance to play in that world.

[01:02:46] Luke: I like that. Going back to the little boy and the chicken, it reminds me of the Roger Banister one-minute mile. Are you familiar with that?

[01:03:02] Elizabeth: Yes.

[01:03:03] Luke: Or like 100th monkey concept. So going back to my earlier realization about someone who grows up in a family system where financial abundance and security is just totally so normal, it's not even talked about, it's just how we roll in our family, that's that Roger Banister training or indoctrination. It's just over the course of your childhood, you're seeing someone else do it effortlessly, and it's just, as you said, the norm. There's a standard that's set. And maybe some of it has to do with that.

[01:03:18] So that little kid on his bike with the chicken, if his five other little friends were there and they didn't know that that wasn't common or think that it was possible and saw him do it, now they're all putting chickens on their bikes. And that just becomes the norm. And then they have kids, and their kid puts the chicken on the bike kind of thing.

[01:03:36] Elizabeth: Yes. Absolutely.

[01:03:37] Luke: I love that. I'm excited to have this conversation, especially with you and your merging of spiritual principles with finance. And I think in the realm that I've emerged from the meditation groups and 12-step groups and yoga groups, it's like there's been a huge disconnect in terms of acknowledging that money is essentially energy, and we're all working in these realms of energy, but for some reason, there's a huge block when we try and reconcile being financially successful or stable or secure, but also leading a spiritually driven life.

[01:04:29] And that's been a huge one for me to overcome because, to me, they were compartmentalized. It's like, you're either doing the spiritual path or you're doing the money path. And I felt that fulfillment is going to be found on the spiritual path. Therefore, I'm going to do that and discount the importance of money. And only as I've gotten older, I think, well, I don't know how many more years I can work this hard. You know what I'm saying? I've been working my ass off since 1985.

[01:05:21] Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:21] Luke: So then I start future thinking a bit, and like, wow, maybe it does matter. Maybe living in a cave and being a renun, it might be a great path for some, but I'm on the householder path. So what kind of house do you want to hold?

[01:05:48] Elizabeth: Yes. Yeah.

[01:05:48] Luke: Yeah.

[01:05:48] Elizabeth: Yeah. I think it's an important conversation especially now because I have a belief that in the future, wealth is going to be in the hands of those who are conscious. And I have that belief because I do believe that money is energy. And if money is energy, then it's not any different than this conversation we're having. It's not any different than the spiritual work itself.

[01:05:55] I think one of the things that people do with money is that they say money is energy, and they'll read a book on, okay, money is energy, and they'll feel really good about it. They say, "Okay, well, it feels like ease or something like that." It feels in flow or what have you. But I don't think that really people have taken that to the level that they could, because if you truly believed it was energy, then you would not believe in the limitation of money.

[01:06:23] You would also know that you have to move money. Money can't be stagnant. I did a workout this morning because I'm like, "My responsibility in this to be open to everyone who's listening to this and to my connection with you is to move energy." I don't see that as being any different than money.

[01:06:50] And so I'm not going to have money just sitting there, or I'm not going to have money that I haven't followed up on, or I'm not going to have money that I'm pushing away or whatever. And people get caught up in this because there's all this manifestation, and you go and you spend money, and you want to feel abundant and all of that.

[01:07:22] Well, how are you really feeling when you spend that? You spend it, but are you feeling in your gut, the lack of it because it's going on a credit card? That's not abundance, just because you're doing a transaction. But if you're giving something to someone, or if you're spending money from a place of the money that I just spent, I can spend it because it's coming right back. Do you see what I'm saying?

[01:07:42] Luke: 100%.

[01:07:43] Elizabeth: It's us. We're the source. We're actually bankrupting money because of us, because we haven't truly indoctrinated ourself, if you will, to the fact that money really is energy and it's not just a concept. Can you live that?

[01:08:24] Luke: I've seen some of these graphs at the end of your Protocol -7 film. There's a really shocking graph that shows-- I forget. It begins in the late '60s or somewhere up until 2024. And it's just like, oh, we went from three shots to 80 or something. It's absolutely diabolical.

[01:08:25] Andy: Yes. It was an enormous cash cow for the pharmaceutical industry. They had no liability for damage done by their vaccines, death or injury. And they had a mandatory market. Children were obliged to get their vaccines to go to school. So you have the perfect business model. No liability at one end, and a mandatory market at the other.

[01:08:44] All you can do is make a massive profit, which is what they did. And so they decided to put more and more and more vaccines onto the market for lesser and lesser and lesser diseases. So now the children are saturated with these vaccines. Is any wonder that their immune systems, their growing immune systems, their developing immune system are damaged or perverted or responding in the wrong way?

[01:09:06] And so it's not just autism, but a whole host of immune mediated problems. Asthma, eczema, hay fever, all of these things that are major problems in children now. And fortunately, Bobby Kennedy is going to be looking into this. Very few people would want to touch this third rail that challenged public health in the pharmaceutical industry, but it's got to be done.

[01:09:33] I did it for many years. They eventually accused me of fraud. And this is the end of-- anyway, it takes five minutes to accuse someone of fraud. A scientist or a doctor, it takes a lifetime, if ever, to shake off the doubt and the label that come with that allegation.

[01:09:58] And if you control the media, which the pharmaceutical industry largely does through direct-to-consumer advertising in this country, then you can get your message across while preventing the contrary message to reach the public. And that's what they did, is they accused me of all kinds of things, which were totally untrue, completely baseless. Didn't matter.

[01:10:05] They've done this now. Everybody's familiar with cancel culture now after COVID. But back then, no one knew about it. It was just me. It was me. And this isn't a hard luck Andy Wakefield, just a historical fact of life, is that there was me on one side, a young physician, and on the other side you had the World Health Organization and UNICEF and the pharmaceutical industry.

[01:10:13] You had the governments of the world, the public health authorities, the American Academy of Pediatrics. It just went on and on and on. So the odds were not great, I have to say. But you can do one of two things in these circumstances. You can just say, "This isn't for me." Roll over, submit, give up.

[01:11:26] Or you can say, no. You know what? Who do I represent here? I represent these children. They don't have a voice. So someone needs to be that voice. So am I going to quit? No, I'm not. This isn't about me. They make it sound like it's about you. Look at that evil guy. He did this. No, he didn't. But if you can convince the population that that's the case, then it's very much easier for you to make your case.

[01:11:27] And this went on for a very long time. It was very dark, a very, very dark time. But when I came to realize that actually this wasn't about me at all, it was about these children, and these children had no voice. So someone has got to be that voice for them. Not just their parents, but someone who was sufficiently qualified to represent them in a scientific arena, a public health arena.

[01:12:18] And so that was how I saw my role. Finally, they put an end to my medical and scientific career. And interestingly, what had happened is that over the years, because of the position I'd taken, people came to me from the pharmaceutical industry, from the vaccine manufacturers, and from federal agencies like the CDC or the FDA or the Department of Health in the UK, and said, "We've done a terrible thing. Here is the evidence."

[01:12:44] And so I became a repository for whistleblowers, and I realized that these would make extremely good movies, tell these as stories or documentaries. And so that's when I decided to become their worst enemy and turn them in--

[01:13:10] Luke: Become a filmmaker.  

[01:13:11] Andy: Become a filmmaker.  

[01:13:13] Luke: They created a monster, right?

[01:13:15] Andy: They did.

[01:13:15] Luke: By vilifying you, the scientific and medical career, it is like, oh, cool. I'm going to pivot and probably-- well, not probably. I'm sure you've done them much more damage as a filmmaker than you ever could as a lone clinician in Texas, helping families one by one. When you've been approached by these whistleblowers, have you ever personally felt a sense of danger just from through your association with them?

[01:13:41] Andy: There are fleeting moments of, what's going to happen? But no, there's no point in thinking about it. The question you have to ask yourself, is this going to alter what I do? And the answer is no. I'm going to do it anyway. So get on with it.

[01:13:57] As long as you are confident in the facts of the case and the message that you are putting across in the film, it's high-risk stuff because these are big firms, they can sue your ass. They can really make your life hell. What have I got? Nothing. But the question is, do they want to do that? Do they really want to make this public? Becomes a new film, if you like.

[01:14:31] So it's a risk, but it's a risk worth taking. Someone's got to push the envelope a little. And that's what you're able to do with film and stay within the bands of integrity and honesty, but tell the truth.

[01:14:52] Luke: Yeah. I think someone has to do it. Because someone has to be the first person to run the four-minute mile to see when someone like you puts their neck out there. I find it inspiring. I was really honored to meet you. I'm like, "Wow, I have a little podcast here. I talk to a few controversial people that have been canceled or have contrarian ideas." But I'm relatively safe because I'm not the-- you're the one talking. I'm just asking questions.

[01:15:07] So it's like I have a little bit of immunity there. But every time I see someone like you take it a step further and really put their neck out, it's inspiring, and it creates a new baseline. Not only for what's possible, but for what we're called to do. It's like, wow, if you can do that, then what am I really doing to support this cause? And we all choose our battles, of course.

[01:15:31] And the one you've chosen, I think is probably one of the, if not most difficult ones, especially in the realm of medicine because it's the sacred cow, it's the linchpin of the whole system, I think-- the vaccine.

[01:16:16] Andy: It's interesting you should mention the four-minute mile. Sir Roger Banister was my neurology teacher at St. Mary's Hospital. He teaches at St. Mary's. Along with my father, they worked together. They were both neurologists. And a little anecdote, I was invited to his Christmas party once, and I went along. I was a medical student.

[01:16:57] I was scruffy medical student, and there was a very attractive physiotherapist at his party. I was trying to impress her. I was got talking to her, and they had candles on the mantlepiece. I knocked over one of the candles, didn't even notice that it had happened, and it set light to the wallpaper over the fireplace and it just-- this the physiotherapist tapped me on the arm and pointed to this. And I grabbed the drink and threw it over.

[01:17:33] Lady Banister, his wife, came past with a tray of food, and I said, "I'm terribly sorry." She said, "Oh, don't worry. We'll have it redecorated." Walked on. Very calm. Very cool. I wasn't invited back.

[01:17:49] Luke: So in your film Protocol-7, which, yeah, I don't want to spoil it for those that haven't seen it. I highly recommend that you do so, and we'll put that in the show notes at lukestorey.com/wakefield. We'll put a link to it. I watched it on Amazon. It's a scary film because you know that this is the reality that we live in.

[01:18:17] But on the other hand, I felt it was almost tame in the great scheme of things in that the case is really about falsifying a pharmaceutical company, Merck, in this case, falsifying their data to prove efficacy for their product to get it approved by the FDA. It's pretty tame in terms of the evil that these companies perpetuate. They're just falsifying data to get it approved. It's not even about the fact that it's maiming and killing so many people.

[01:18:53] It's like now in the era of COVID and the pharmaceutical debacle that came on the heels of that, it's like, wow, that movie in and of itself, I think, would be terrifying from one perspective. But it's so much bigger and so much worse than that even. So I feel like what you did with that film was really smart because you're kind of like, "Here's just one little example of just one case." And litigation around that.

[01:19:22] But it's like, man, if you zoom out, this monster is just so much bigger than that. So I'm curious why, of all the sort of scandals in relation to vaccines, did you choose that one particular case?

[01:19:41] Andy: I think because the evidence was so convincing. If you're going to make a film and before it goes out, it's going to go before lawyers and they're going to tear it up and say, "You can't say that. You can't say--" well, do you have evidence, proof for that? You have to make sure that everything you say is entirely justified.

[01:19:59] And so it was a story that was real. It was going on in court at the time it was made. It had a direct impact on the wellbeing of people. And the reason is it wasn't just about did the vaccine work? Was it efficacious? The problem with mumps is that it's mild in children. it's a mild disease. CDC said, we don't even need a vaccine for it when it was originally proposed by Merck.

[01:20:31] And what happened was that when you get mumps later in life, after puberty, particularly in men, then you can suffer severe complications, testicular inflammation, and infertility. And so if you have a vaccine that doesn't work or only works for a short period of time, but someone thinks they're protected, and when they reach that more dangerous period of life post puberty, and they're still susceptible to mumps, you've got a major problem.

[01:21:05] And this has happened across the world. Major outbreaks of mumps in student populations, in adult populations, on board a Navy destroyer, and suddenly it's a much bigger issue because you've turned a mild childhood disease into a much more dangerous adult disease because your vaccine doesn't work and certainly doesn't work as well as you've said it does to the FDA.

[01:21:37] So it goes far beyond just the issue of this vaccine is a little weaker than we thought or isn't-- so it's a big, big issue. And it also is a reflection of the attitude of those in the industry. It's in the corporate interests. Forget about the patients. Forget about the children. Forget about the lies we've told about how well this works. They're irrelevant. We all signed a contract, putting the company first above all other things.

[01:22:11] Luke: Shareholders.

[01:22:12] Andy: Yeah. And that's what it's about, the stock price. So they're going to do everything they can to protect the stock price, not to protect the pediatric population.

[01:22:23] Luke: Let's talk about food. I think this is an idea that many of us have. Wow, I want to be food independent. I've not had a lot of experience trying to grow food, but the little I have has been very difficult and it doesn't go as planned.

[01:22:35] So the idea of going to where it's not necessary to go to the grocery store or buy food on the Internet, that like the land provides for you, whether that's hunting, fishing, growing food, that seems to me like so far out of reach. So give us the rundown of where one would start in terms of gardening, greenhouse, and so on.

[01:22:48] Curtis: Yeah. Like everything, start the path of least resistance. Start with something you like doing. Start with something easy, the low-hanging fruit. Could be a small kitchen garden, one raised bed. It could be some herbs and lettuce on your balcony. Start with some things like that to just get little wins. I find it so important to have little successes.

[01:23:06] So many people try to just go all the way. They look at my homestead and they just go, I want to do that. I'm going to go all out. And then they have a ton of irons in the fire and then nothing gets done.

[01:23:29] So it's better to say, "Okay, this summer we're going to build a kitchen garden." Maybe it's an 8 by 12 or a 4 by 12 raised bed, and we're going to grow 10 tomato plants. We're going to grow some lettuce and spinach and some herbs, and we're going to just do that and do it successful. Then next year we're going to add a couple of more beds and we're going to do all of our potatoes.

[01:23:45] That's easy to do. Then maybe we're going to do some cabbages, and maybe we're going to start making our own sauerkraut. We're going to start-- then we can build a root cellar. So it's all about just ratcheting up, starting with something simple and achievable so that you get a success, you build confidence, and then you get excited to do more.

[01:24:10] And so the way I like to think about all these things is on a sliding scale of dependency to sovereignty-- is over here we're dependent. You come home, you turn on the lights, you hope they turn on. You go to the grocery store, you hope there's food.

[01:24:13] That time I was in Montreal and I realized there wasn't a lot of food that I wanted. That was a big wake up call for me. So we all start dependent, and then we can take a step to getting a little less dependent by, maybe we have a kitchen garden. Maybe we have seven days of stored food in the pantry or maybe we've got a bagel out bag or something like that.

[01:24:27] And then we can go to a form of security. So we go dependency, to less dependency to security. Maybe we've got a big garden. Maybe we've got a second source of water. Maybe we've got a backyard well. We've got a backup generator. Then we go from security to resilience where we can have more systems diversified, other types of food growing systems, greenhouses, so on and so forth, to sovereignty where you've got a whole litany of different things and you can just pick and choose and you have redundancies built into that.

[01:24:46] So when it comes to food production, start with things that are small. Start with things that are easy. Start with things that you like to do, that you like growing, and then go from there. And I would even say after 15 years of doing this stuff, growing my own food and all that, my garden is simpler than it's ever been, as I just grow stuff that we like. I used to just do so many different things to just do it and try it.

[01:25:10] Now, my garden is so simple. Two types of potatoes, two types of tomatoes. I got my celery. I got my winter carrots. I got my cabbages. It's really simple. That seems like a lot, but the way the garden is set up is just single beds of one type of crop, just like I did on the farm. In my book, I just laid out these little mini monocultures. And they're not monocultures. I call them that for lack of a better term. But yeah, just think about simple things that you can achieve get successes.

[01:25:38] Luke: When it comes to really being mindful about how you get a piece of land and doing your due diligence and wanting to live there, at least visit there for a while before you start building infrastructure, one thing that would be challenging for me is if I want fruit trees, they're going to take a few years to start producing fruit, so I would be like, "I want to get them shits in the ground right away, but I might put them in the wrong place.

[01:26:21] Curtis: Exactly. That's the catch 22. I know. That is the catch 22. But this is where there's nothing wrong with leaning on the expertise of somebody. There's nothing wrong with paying some local permaculture designer to do a basic land analysis of your property.

[01:26:25] Get on the topographic map, find out where the main water points are, the drainages and all this kind of stuff, and then come up with a basic plan of it makes most sense-- and you might not ask for a full design, but just say, "Give me the basic framework of what it makes sense to put each thing where."

[01:26:48] Where do the buildings and infrastructure make sense to go? Close to the road. First of all, figure out where the road goes. Then the infrastructure. Then look at the soil deposits on the property and then start to plan from there. But you're right. It's important to plant trees first. But I can tell you, over many years of consulting for people on this, how many people come to me and say, "I can't believe I put those trees there. I wanted the trees first because I wanted the three year plan to get the fruit, but I regret."

[01:27:13] And then they're pulling the trees out. But you know what? That's okay. It's okay to have some level of discovery, knowing that you're going to do some things that you might have to change later on. It's not that big of a deal.

[01:27:38] Luke: Yeah. That's good because I've thought about that here. I think, man, we've already lived here three, four years, whatever it's been. If I would've planted trees on day one-- but I've been waiting to do the hardscaping. There's weird elevations here, and I don't know where I want things, because I'm thinking aesthetically first. I want it to look pretty so when I walk out in my backyard, I go, "Ah, it feels good out here." So I've been waiting, holding off. I'm like, "Dude, I could have just planted the fruit trees and built around them. You know what I'm saying?

[01:27:50] Curtis: Oh yeah.

[01:27:57] Luke: So it's funny. This is a very easy property to map those things out. And I think, man, if you had 5, 10, 20 acres, there's a lot more to consider there.

[01:28:16] Curtis: There is. But you know what? You really only need five acres. You can really do it-- especially in Texas. Five acres, you can do it all. You can even have some cows for milk and meat, and you can have big gardens and orchards, ponds. You can do a lot on five acres in Texas. The topography lends itself better towards it as well, in that it's flatter here. So five acres here is a lot more usable than five acres where I'm at.

[01:28:43] Luke: Right. Let's talk about livestock. So if we've gotten to the stage where we're growing some food, I think most people probably start with chickens. That seems like an easy one. You get some eggs and layers.

[01:30:26] Curtis: Yes.

[01:30:26] Luke: Maybe eat some wings every now and then. What are your recommendations in terms of the initial steps at some livestock? Which animals? How many? How do you want to scale that out if you have the space and the bandwidth to do it?

[01:30:38] Curtis: It's, again, what will the land support? And then what's low-hanging fruit? So egg layers are the easiest animal to start with. Maybe rabbits could be another one. Quail, quail eggs, duck eggs.

[01:30:55] Luke: You reminded me, dude. I met a guy at the farmer's market here who rents you quails. He will come and set up the little quail house in your backyard and you get this quail eggs. And then at some point if they die, they replace them. It's like rent a quail.

[01:30:59] Curtis: That's brilliant.

[01:31:02] Luke: It's a cool idea.

[01:31:02] Curtis: It's cool because it gets people into it. But yeah, start with that stuff, the small bird livestock. And then go from there. Because what will your land support? My land would not support cows. I had Joel Salatin-- is a pretty good friend of mine-- tell me that.

[01:31:13] Luke: Too rugged.

[01:31:13] Curtis: It's too rugged. It's forest. Cows do well in pasture and low-lying valleys where the soil's built up and the grass grows. I don't have grass on my property. So for me I do chicken layers. I do meat birds. I do a flock of meat birds every year, and I do turkeys. And if I were to introduce new animals, probably some goats.

[01:31:37] Luke: That's what I was thinking.

[01:31:43] Curtis: Maybe some pigs in the forest.

[01:31:45] Luke: Because you see goats on really rugged lands.

[01:31:45] Curtis: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And so it's what will your land support? But the thing with animals that people always screw up is they just take on too much and all of a sudden you can't get off your property because who's going to look after the animals? And so you really got to just do things incrementally with all this stuff. Think about the homestead as this piece of pizza and you got this piece here and this piece here.

[01:31:54] Just add things incrementally. Because the world is so inundated with content now, and there's just so many homestead influencers out there. Everybody just wants to do it all at once. And it is the biggest mistake you'll make because you might jeopardize your marriage.

[01:32:08] You might jeopardize time with your children. You might jeopardize time at your work. If you take on too much, it's the fastest way to burn out. And then if you burn out, you might just get sick of it and not want to do it. So you really got to like the lifestyle.

[01:32:54] Luke: What is your intuitive feeling in regard to who built the pyramids and how the F they did it?

[01:32:56] Isis: One of my favorite stories-- I love stories. I feel like stories are very helpful, and we're in a time of new stories and old stories-- is that Tehuti (Thoth), her mistress [Inaudible], but in the form of Thoth, Tehuti-- they are an ibis-headed being-- came down in a ship with Ma'at. And the ship was the shape of the capstone of the grape pyramid.

[01:33:29] And they came down a ship to bring the mystery teachings from different star systems, and they landed in this area. This is one of the stories. Perhaps exactly where the Great Pyramid is. And also, just have to say, the Great Pyramid is the only eight-sided pyramid that we know.

[01:33:48] Luke: Really?

[01:33:49] Isis: Yeah. As opposed to the other two. They're not eight sided.

[01:33:52] Luke: Interesting.

[01:33:53] Isis: So there's something very specific about this one too that is interesting. 2.5 million blocks, eight sided. So one of the stories is that Tehuti and/or Thoth, and Ma'at came down in the ship. They landed there, and that became the capstone or the Benben stone of the Great Pyramid, and brought the mystery teachings that included carrying forward the technologies to build this pyramid.

[01:34:19] And some of the stories are that in relationship to sound combined with water, the electrical, conductive current of water, and also the vibrational frequency processes of being able to shift the gravity dynamic and support things in their natural movement to be able to move through sound frequency and water, to then stack and build 2.5 million blocks. And then the ship idea, I love this idea.

[01:34:52] Luke: I'm with you so far. I'm [Inaudible].

[01:34:53] Isis: I love the ship part. And then the ship landing being referenced as the Benben stone in this context that also relates to the Bennu bird that also relates to the Phoenix was the capstone that represented the bringing forth of the mystery teachings of life that feeds death, that feeds rebirth and resurrection again.

[01:35:14] The Phoenix wisdom teachings. And I really like the story because it brings in the idea of the Star Nations, ships, combined with the sound that creates the world, the sound that shapes the world in relationship to water and the electrical currents that move through water.

[01:35:33] In the world of the Neteru, they call the cosmic forces of Egypt, the Neteru, the hieroglyphic looks like water and electrical current of water. And so there's all kinds of stories. Is it just sound healing, or is it also with some form of water and electrical current of water moving things? I feel like it's both personally.

[01:36:01] Luke: Yeah. I think it's so mystifying to us because we have an attachment to the theory of gravity. I don't think many people-- I didn't realize for a long time, that it's just a theory. It hasn't been proven. So some people refer to it as buoyancy and density. There's a great video meme about this topic where they place an anvil, which is heavy as hell in liquid mercury and it just floats.

[01:36:32] Isis: Oh, wow.

[01:36:33] Luke: Yeah. So you watch something like that, which is a pretty rudimentary example of what might be a play in terms of the energetics, but imagine the possibilities and the technologies that have been lost or suppressed along the way. So yeah, like most things throughout history, the official narrative, it's just so weak and easy to poke holes in. That a bunch of slaves carry these giant block.

[01:37:00] Isis: It's completely not even realistic.

[01:37:02] Luke: Come on.

[01:37:03] Isis: Yeah.

[01:37:03] Luke: It's like, dude. You could probably tell your 4-year-old that story, and he'd be like, no.

[01:37:08] Isis: It's completely not realistic. Also too, the movement of the blocks, that amount of stone to get there. They haven't found it anywhere in that region.

[01:37:17] Luke: Oh, wow.

[01:37:18] Isis: Yeah. And then also, a friend of mine-- was it Robert Shock? I think we did a summit, and I think it was him. He said that the ramp that it would require to carry these blocks to get as high as they need to go, would require more stone to make the ramp than it would then what is actually there.

[01:37:42] Luke: Right.

[01:37:43] Isis: That's what he said. And where that stone actually resides, it wasn't in that area, all that limestone. It wasn't there in that area. They'd have to transport it all.

[01:37:52] Luke: That's insane.

[01:37:53] Isis: It just doesn't feel realistic in general that slaves built it.

[01:37:58] Luke: Yeah.

[01:38:00] Isis: I know.

[01:38:00] Luke: Another interesting thing about all of these sacred sites, but pyramid specifically is when you look at them on a grid of earth and where they're located, on the lay lines, many of them in totally unrelated cultures, but seemingly, at least according to the story, had no way of contacting one another. And yet at relatively similar time periods, they made these monolithic structures.

[01:38:31] Isis: In a perfect geometric patterning. Hugh Newman did this interesting mapping of it, and also what sacred sites align with what star systems.

[01:38:42] Luke: Oh, right.

[01:38:43] Isis: Like the three pyramids with the Orion's Belt. Same thing with [Inaudible] and the Hopi Nation. That's always been fascinating to me, which sacred sites align with what star systems and why. And where are they in relationship to each other? There's also this interesting place in South Africa where the White Lion sanctuary is, and there's the only place in the world where there's white lions, and that it's in direct alignment with the Great Pyramid.

[01:39:13] So it's like, this is actually fairly common in the ancient Temples, department, and we're just beginning to unpack all of these stories. It's almost like we have to go backwards in order to go forward, go further into our origin.

[01:39:32] Luke: What I find funny about just this topic in general is the arrogance of people today, modern people, and that we tend to think about ancient peoples as primitive and unintelligent. You just look at their understanding of building astronomy, the things that you point to. It's like, hmm, who are really the dumb people?

[01:39:57] If you look at the way we treat the planet and our relationship to the elements and our relationships to one another, it's like, hmm. I'm sure there were some barbaric people throughout history, but there were also some extremely tapped in people that have just been lost in the official his story.

[01:40:17] Isis: It is wild. When we go to Egypt, one of my dear friends Mahmoud, he's always like, "Anywhere you dig, Isis, here, you'll find something." It's like there's temples stacked on top of temples. They're still discovering. We are still in a period of discovery. They call this time of the great unveiling, the apocalypse. Everything we thought we knew was out the window. You know what I mean?

[01:40:45] Luke: I feel like every week I stumble upon something. I'm just like, "Okay, there goes something that I was indoctrinated with that I have to let go of." And I think also humans just have a difficult time resting in the not knowing. It's like we'd almost rather accept something that intuitively feels untrue than just be left in the mystery of, well, we don't really know and we might never know.

[01:41:14] So we'll just say, "Science says." You look at this in archeology. You got your Graham Hancocks and these renegades that are coming out with alternative views on historical events and weather events and things like that, ancient cultures, and there's all of this pushback from the academic establishment. Why? That makes me more curious about some of these alternative points of view, the fact that they meet so much resistance. And there's so much dogma working against them.

[01:41:50] Isis: Yeah. This is really what has been documented, is not that long in our human story. And then we start getting into these parallel myths around the floods. So many cultures around the world have these stories of the flood. What was before that? Was there only one flood?

[01:42:09] Were there more than one? And this is why I love-- also, I share that deep interest and curiosity and going further back. Because I feel like it helps us understand more of where we come from and who we are that is not written in the textbooks we've been raised in. It's like a whole new time.

[01:42:28] Luke: Totally.

[01:42:28] Isis: And it's almost like too, going further back, at least in my own genuine just path of discovery, so many of these ancient cultures or indigenous communities have relationships with the stars and star people. It's like going back helps to connect with the future. And all of that just meets right here, right now because this is a time of the great not knowing this.

[01:42:52] Luke: Yeah, I could say that again.

[01:42:54] Isis: Here we are.